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Party control in CRPG's: Good or Bad?

Psilon

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Arcanum didn't have especially bad pathfinding. You needed waypoints for really complicated routes (such as in dungeon mazes), but the PC was certainly capable of negotiating his way around minor obstructions. The main beef I had with Arcanum's pathfinding was the way characters would slam to a halt if they passed into a villager's square. That made dense cities like Tarant and Caladon very irritating.
 

Azael

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Wasteland 2
Spazmo said:
I don't want to bash anyone in particual either, but the failing of BioWare's AI is simply because they have incompetent AI programmers. Just becasue Bio can't manage it doesn't mean another company wouldn't be capable of writing solid AI, and I desperately hope ToEE will prove me right.

Agreed, Bioware must have some pretty bad AI programmers, not only because of the pathfinding but also because several of the AI scripts you could have for your character were complete bollocks. The script that should make them target enemy spellcasters for example, quite often made them attack spellcasters in my party.
 

Crazy Tuvok

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Azael said:
Agreed, Bioware must have some pretty bad AI programmers, not only because of the pathfinding but also because several of the AI scripts you could have for your character were complete bollocks. The script that should make them target enemy spellcasters for example, quite often made them attack spellcasters in my party.

I wonder why they included the ability to modify the scripts at all, as I found no matter what I did with the scripts for any class, something was seriously amiss. Same thing with turning the AI on; did anyone play the game for very long with the AI on? Christ someone at Bioware forgot to put the "I" in their AI.
 

Skorpios

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Oops, sorry about derailing the thread! :P

But is the AI question so simple? In the world of FPS, isn't the creation of credible 'bots' that can challenge players only a relatively recent phenomenon, and even now they are nowhere near the challenge of a real opponent. I'm probably underestimating the complexity immensely, but isn't the basic programming of a FPS bot something like:

If it moves kill it.
If it shoots back, dodge - then kill it.


Now compare that to the AI necessary for RPG combat.

Attack nearest target....unless:

It is summoned, if so, attack the summoner.
There is a spellcaster nearby, in that case kill them first
It is protected by Spell X, or protected by God Y
It is on your side, dummy!
It is frozen, stunned, held, paralysed or just drunk

Add in the dangers of powerful firearms (as in Fallout) and things can get even more complicated!
 

Psilon

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FPS bots also have to know the map and run an unpredictable circuit to pick up items. They also do priority evaluations on targets; someone with a melee weapon isn't going to get targeted unless they're really close or the only player around.

As for your "...unless" list, most of those can be coded really quickly. Hell, the last three are easily done in FPSes.
"Protected by [spell or [deity]" = using Invulnerability powerup
"On your side, dummy!" = self-explanatory. Bots are damn good at avoiding friendly fire.
"Frozen/stunned/held/paralyzed/drunk" = lagged out
 

Sharpei_Diem

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Thing is, you can't just use a simple if construct, because if the player knows that the computer always exhibits a certain behaviour, then the smart player will adapt and do something to take advantage of that AI behaviour. So you'd want to program some variability in it to make computer actions appear more random: and maybe even scale that to the intelligence of the creature/npc being modelled (a bear wouldn't know to target a spellcaster in the back ranks but would likely attack the closest threat, if it did even attack).

Didn't find Arcanum's pathfinding to be particularly good either. One thing i can't figure out: since the party npc's don't matter except in combat circumstances, why even bother to display them at all when you're not in combat? The game is a series of abstractions anyways, why not have one more: the icon you control represents you and your party. When you get into combat, then that icon would disappear, to be replaced by the position of your npcs....at least that fixes the whole need to work on pathfinding...
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Spazmo said:
However, a game like Baldur's Gate does need multiple player-controlled PCs, simply because the D&D ruleset is geared towards a party mechanic. You need a rogue to be stealthy, you need a mage to sling spells, you need a fighter to soak up damage and you need a cleric to patch him up. However, when done like Baldur's Gate did, it's purely nonsense since you effectively take control of a character who is not yours. Nobody is forcing you to play that character the way the designers intended. The only way they can force that is with particularly intelligently written AI scripts, something where an order to attack a good creature would cause a good party member to complain or even refuse, player frustration be damned, or to simply have a heap or scripted events occur that give the NPC a wealth of opportunities to remind the player that he's the dwarf who hates goblins because they ate his favorite hat.

I still disagree with this argument. Just because all D&D CRPGs are party based, doesn't mean they have to be from here to eternity.

For one thing, other classes can be stealthy. Depending on level, wizards have invis spells. Druids/Rangers can shapeshift and talk to animals, which would allow them to either become an animal for camoflauge or use an animal to scout for him. I believe all classes are capable of disguising themselves with the right skill points allocated, so that would allow some stealth in certain situations, depending on how they build their character.

On the other hand, some classes don't need to be stealthy. Fighters and Barbarians are basically tank characters. They don't have to sneak, they can just knock heads.

Healing might be an issue, but that's based on how the game is balanced. If the majority of the game can be done diplomatically, then you just work on your speech skills and you don't have to kill everyone. Less combat is less healing required. Even if there is a lot of combat, then maybe there are a good deal of health potions or other healing devices available. Even how resting is handled in the game can affect this.

Most D&D CRPGs don't have much in the way of the spells that aren't about killing and buffing, like illusion spells, so it's arguable that you need a mage to fling spells. A fighter can make things just as dead as a fireball, it just might take longer.

The big consideration, of course, would be how the mechanics of the game would be handled. If there's options for most ways to handle a situation, then certainly, you wouldn't need a party. If you had to get a gem from some kobolds, you could just kill them and take it, or perhaps sneak in and take it, or even buy it from them. There might even be a way to trick them in to handing it over by bluffing them.

As long as you don't design things poorly, like IWD2 did with sneaking thieves triggering events as if you just waltzed right up and said, "HI! HOW ARE YOU GUYS?" or NWN by filling every nook and cranny with locked heavy doors and chests, a single character can do things his way - without a party.
 

Spazmo

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I'm not saying all D&D games so far have been party based. I'm saying D&D itself is party based. While it is possible to make a single character who can do most anything with intelligent multiclassing and skill selection, other systems are much better equipped to handle single-hero games and D&D is well suited for party games.
 

Voss

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I agree. I was going to write out a complex analogy involving sandwiches and pizza and how someone could make one out of the other, but decided it wasn't worth it. What it comes down to is that to make a single player D&D game, you have to work around a lot of design decisions and rules that are inherent in the system. Why go through the extra work, especially since its almost certain that you'll have a vocal mass of people camped out on your doorstep (or forum...) complaining that you've ruined things.

Although thinking about it, no PnP RPG is really good for a solo experience, it runs contrary to the entire basic premise of PnP gaming. Which is primarily a group gathering.
And most classes/archetypes/concepts in games are set up so that they can't do everything- or at least hindered from moving away from the basic concept.

A system designed for CRPG play, on the other hand, can be set up to focus on the single character experience. And generally works out much better.
 

Section8

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I wonder why they included the ability to modify the scripts at all

Simple, if you can't do it yourself, allow third parties to do it for you.

I think one of the biggest problems with AI is not that it isn't particularly smart, but more that it isn't particularly interesting. Consider:

  • Enemies that hunger for blood. If one of your "chums" is bleeding then he's in trouble.
  • Enemies sensitive to magic. Just casting in the vicinity of them makes them irate.
  • Enemies that are blind, and will attack anything noisy
  • Enemies that charge, put distance between you and them and repeat
  • Enemies attracted to shiny things, like plate armour
  • Enemies with a short memory who will attack whatever did the most damage in the last round
  • Enemies who can only sense movement
  • Etc.

Nothing in that list requires any intelligence to script, but it makes the player think about what they are doing, which is important given the trend toward tactical combat in RPGs. It also opens up more possibilities for "Monster Lore" skills. Rather than merely pointing out weaknesses, skilled characters can gain understanding of behaviours and such things can greatly aid the player. Which means you also get the added bonus of helpful things a character knows that the player may not.
 

Skorpios

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I like the way you think Section8! :D

It opens up all sorts of interesting possibilities:

"Bloodlust" - what happens if more than one character is wounded? Or what if you hit an enemy first and they start to bleed, could you trigger a 'feeding frenzy' where they turn on each other?

"Magic Scent" - how do they feel about enchanted items? Will they orient on characters carrying 'buff' enchantments as well?

"Motion sense" - I think they should be sensitive to somone rummaging around in their knapsack as well - and attack anyone who opens their inventory and swaps/uses items!

"Charge!!" - yes, this is the most important one I think. Opponents need more tactics than simply "rush up and hit" or "hang back and snipe/spellcast". Tactics such as 'circle and strafe' or 'capture the chokepoint' or even just sensible use of cover - all would be welcome additions to opponent AI, but I'm still not sure how easy they would be to implement.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Spazmo said:
I'm not saying all D&D games so far have been party based. I'm saying D&D itself is party based. While it is possible to make a single character who can do most anything with intelligent multiclassing and skill selection, other systems are much better equipped to handle single-hero games and D&D is well suited for party games.

I'm not talking about how the player is built, I'm talking about about building the game for a single player. You can do that with D&D. A fighter and a thief can both kill an orc chieftan, but chances are that in PnP, they're going to go about it differently. Therefore, design the area of the CRPG accordingly so that both the fighter and thief can use their natural abilities to work that area.

Have secret back ways through the lair that thieves can find.. Have orcs for the fighter to slaughter or the magic user to charm or fireball.. The thing about it is, it's too easy to design something for a party because like Volourn said, you're just playing a multiheaded player that can do everything. All you have to do to design a party based CRPG is throw everything in but the kitchen sink. Make a cave, then toss in traps here and there, and fill it with orcs. You now have a reason to have a thief, fighters, magic users, and clerics.

Instead, what I'm saying is make the cave so that there's multiple methods allowed in getting through the cave based on what skills are implimented in the system as well as the classes.
 

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