Incline Okay let's be real here... Which games can never be RPGs?

[Ash]

If your definition of RPG is purely a gameplay one (I.e. experience points, level ups and skill progression) then technically Call of Duty and The Sims are by definition RPGs. So I think the actual differentiating quality is player-driven ROLEPLAYING that allows you to have a sense of AGENCY in who your character is and how they deal with situations.

Bro...that's gameplay. The rules/design of the game allow for those things in the gameplay.

But again, here's the problem with that.

Call of Duty is a game with experience points, level ups, and stat-based progression. There's a wide range of different weapon types that allow you to fulfill whatever role you'd want on the battlefield. By your own definition, if gameplay is all that defines an RPG, Call of Duty is an RPG.

What part of the walls of text defining RPG gameplay that extends far beyond stats and xp did you not get? Roleplaying, adventure, combat, character customisation, logistics/resource micromanagement, die rolls, puzzle elements, navigation and exploration (not a TTRPG thing, but unique to cRPGs as a natural evolution of the concept) and so forth? Call of Duty is 15% an RPG at best. It's an FPS borrowing one mere core tenet of RPG gameplay. One of many.

The only non-gameplay concept I would ascribe as a pretty important aspect of RPGs is "fantasy", but even that isn't absolute. You can have realism-based RPGs no problem. Not really something I'd be interested in if it's too realistic, but hey. And even then it would still be a simulated fantasy of sorts to fuck around in, just in a world that closely represents ours.
Story is not completely worthless to the discussion, important if only merely to serve as a backdrop and initial context like in most classic cRPG, but that is a given for almost absolutely every video game since the 90s more complex than Tetris or Pong. It goes without saying and story is otherwise mostly irrelevant when it comes to definition and qualification. There are genuine RPGs with minimal story, including the very first era of cRPG e.g Ultima and Wizardry. Remember, they're role-playing games. Not role-playing stories. They exist and are called CYOA. Different thing entirely. RPGs are better, more fullfilled RPGs when there is a developed story threading the world and actions together with greater context, but not at all mandatory. Otherwise many 80s-era cRPGs aren't RPGs.

 

[luj1]

What about games like Kenshi?

I don't know... have to think about it

 

[HappyDaddyWow!]

If your definition of RPG is purely a gameplay one (I.e. experience points, level ups and skill progression) then technically Call of Duty and The Sims are by definition RPGs. So I think the actual differentiating quality is player-driven ROLEPLAYING that allows you to have a sense of AGENCY in who your character is and how they deal with situations.

Bro...that's gameplay. The rules/design of the game allow for those things in the gameplay.

But again, here's the problem with that.

Call of Duty is a game with experience points, level ups, and stat-based progression. There's a wide range of different weapon types that allow you to fulfill whatever role you'd want on the battlefield. By your own definition, if gameplay is all that defines an RPG, Call of Duty is an RPG.

What part of the walls of text defining RPG gameplay that extends far beyond stats and xp did you not get? Roleplaying, adventure, combat, character customisation, logistics/resource micromanagement, die rolls, puzzle elements, navigation and exploration

Again I find this too vague to accept because there are plenty of games you'd consider an RPG without these elements, and plenty of games with these elements that you wouldn't consider an RPG. The Sims has character customization, logistics/resource management, navigation and exploration, stat based progression, etc. But many would probably take issue with calling it an RPG.

So again, I would argue that actual roleplaying is the defining element of a roleplaying game. If it doesn't have a developed world or setting that you can establish a unique character in, it's not an RPG.

 

[Ash]

Again I find this too vague to accept because there are plenty of games you'd consider an RPG without these elements, and plenty of games with these elements that you wouldn't consider an RPG. The Sims has character customization, logistics/resource management, navigation and exploration, stat based progression, etc. But many would probably take issue with calling it an RPG.

Yeah, the sims is perhaps 50% RPG. Lacking adventure/exploration/navigation/combat/dungeon delving or whatever. The question is where do we draw the line at true RPG? somewhere between 70-95%. Like I said.

I guess maybe, just maybe you can include one non-gameplay addendum then to really nail it down based on the established rules of the past: it has to be masculine fantasy. Themes of conquest, heroism, adventure. Girly or low-T stuff like Sims can be no RPG....right? Right? Other than that - which I am still not quite confident in but it is the established rule of the past and shared among almost every one of them - RPG is otherwise all defined by gameplay convention. That I absolutely am confident in.

We can let the girls in can't we? lol. Don't do it they ruin everything, them and their endless simps. Whoops too late.

 

[luj1]

Call of Duty is 15% an RPG

The Sims is perhaps 50% RPG

Like I said, a purely quantitative approach doesn't work and will get you nowhere...

 

[Ash]

It works perfectly fine. You can go back and forth 1000 times as RPG Codex has done for decades unable to solve this fairly simple problem and in the end, you will realize I am right. So have fun with that

 

[luj1]

A male is 15% a woman, because his testosterone to estrogen ratio is 8:1

 

[Ash]

Bro stop it. Your analogies suck!

Also, Call of Duty is 15% an RPG...and this means not an RPG at all in practice. Again, anything less than a estimated/reasonable-but-debatable 70% overlap is RPG-lite, or anything super low like this is not an RPG at all, is merely borrowing one tenet of many possible. It's quite simple. Don't be like the vermin you are better than that.

 

[Serus]

Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson, Jim Ward, and Rob Kuntz sat all night around a campfire at Lake Geneva, discussing the definition of Role-Playing Games. Towards morning, Brian Blume arrived to tell them that it was time to go to their TSR offices. Gary Gygax said, whether a game is an RPG is determined by the number of polearms in its weapons list. And the more polearms it contains, the more it is to be praised.

This is the most prestigious definition I've ever read. Excellent for our prestigious magazine. We should adopt it as an official definition - right now!

Edit: What is the best CRPG according to this definition?

 

[Dorateen]

Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson, Jim Ward, and Rob Kuntz sat all night around a campfire at Lake Geneva, discussing the definition of Role-Playing Games. Towards morning, Brian Blume arrived to tell them that it was time to go to their TSR offices. Gary Gygax said, whether a game is an RPG is determined by the number of polearms in its weapons list. And the more polearms it contains, the more it is to be praised.

This is the most prestigious definition I've ever read. Excellent for our prestigious magazine. We should adopt it as an official definition - right now!

Edit: What is the best CRPG according to this definition?

Pool of Radiance

 

[Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi]

None, because games aren't rocket propelled grenades.

 

[Iucounu]

Reading this I believe ARK Survival Evolved is more CRPG than the Mass Effect games? ARK ticks almost all the boxes above.

A huge chunk of the "survival" genre games lean heavily into the CRPG turf. Attributes and skills determine what you can do in the game with both combat and noncombat skills. You gain experience for what you accomplish both in and out of combat. You earn levels with enough experience which allows you to raise your ability to do things.

In fact the only RPG mechanic missing from ARK in the above list seems to be classes for your human character. But different species of tamed dinos might be considered classes, and they all have their own skill trees you can upgrade. You can bring several of them along in a party, and give them various commands. You can't romance your dinosaurs, but you can make them breed with each other.

So why are not ARK and other survival games (like The Long Dark) considered RPGs on this forum?

 

[Iucounu]

RPG Codex is full of people that love storyfaggotry (and virtual girlfriends) more than they love actual RPG game design concepts. Terrible shame.

Yes. For years I was misled to believe RPGs were about interactive stories, while it seems I was playing real RPGs all along.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yeah, the sims is perhaps 50% RPG. Lacking adventure/exploration/navigation/combat/dungeon delving or whatever.

Sims 3 with World Adventures has dungeon crawling, adds kung fu which actually plays a part in dealing with burglars and mummies in Egyptian tombs. Sims 3 with Ambitions adds five active career paths which are a series of quests with sidequests specifically for those three careers, Investigator, Fire Fighter, Ghost Hunter, Architectural Designer, and Stylist. Sims 3 was also the open world one where you could explore the entire town without loading screens and featured a number of collectibles scattered around the map such as rocks(including jewels), seeds, small animals, large animals, and so on.

Sims 4 has a lot of that with the millions of expansions it has, but the lack of the open world kind of screws it over. They also removed the burglars, which removed one of the only combat things in the game.

EA announced years ago that they were going to take the Sims 3 engine, I believe, and make an RPG with it but never actually did. This was after Sims: Medieval, and was also going to be done by someone other than Maxis, so it wasn't Sims: Medieval.

So why are not ARK and other survival games (like The Long Dark) considered RPGs on this forum?

Puritanism. I forgot that ARK also has quests, while not given by a person as in most CRPGs, they are given by objects and are virtually indistinguishable from low tier, single stage quests in most CRPGs.

 

[luj1]

Also, Call of Duty is 15% an RPG...and this means not an RPG at all

Exactly. Thanks for inadvertently proving my point

 

[Iucounu]

So why are not ARK and other survival games (like The Long Dark) considered RPGs on this forum?

Puritanism. I forgot that ARK also has quests, while not given by a person as in most CRPGs, they are given by objects and are virtually indistinguishable from low tier, single stage quests in most CRPGs.

Yes, admittedly ARK's quests are basic retrieve artifacts from dungeons in order to summon boring boss fights but they do exist. The Long Dark's cheesy Story mode also contains quests (I prefer Survival mode though).

 

[DJOGamer PT]

According to this, porting TTRPGs to CRPGs was misguided

Yes and no
Like everything, the first attempts are always more experimentation than anything - plus videogames as a medium was in constant experimentation well into 2001/2002
In those early days, tRPGs served as a good frame of reference and solid starting point for the exploration of the genre
They're still worthy sources of inspiration, so it isn't misguided to try and capture the feel of a pnp system and/or campgain - that's essentially what Larian has been doing since its inception
It is however, misguided to hold that the ultimate objective of role-playing videogames is to be the digital equivalent of role-playing tabletop games - because by their very nature they can never be that, moreover it only ends up sabotaging their potential and unique strengths

So are you saying CRPGs were a mistake?

No

I thought you had a point

And I thought you could comprehend English

IMO this is an incorrect view as it takes away too much control away from the player and it's logical conclusion would be to make most, if not all, actions dependant on mathematical abstractions
"So, you're about to land the finishing blow on this gruelling final boss? Oh, you want to move to that spot to get a better tactical positioning? Ups sorry, your PC got the 1% critical failure and slipped on a banana peel and broke his spine. Fuck you, try again eheheheheheheheh."

This is a very exaggerated point to go along with your very retarded take.

Critical failure: try again

An extreme example for comedic effect, which doesn't undermine the argument at hand

 

[ds]

None, because games aren't rocket propelled grenades.

But RPGs can be games if you are brave enough.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Also, Call of Duty is 15% an RPG...and this means not an RPG at all

Exactly. Thanks for inadvertently proving my point

But doesn't that mean quantitative approach works and gets you somewhere, huh??

 

[luj1]

You can take elements of any genre and graft it onto another. But what it originally was, is what it is. Ergo Souls is an action adventure game, Borderlands is a FPS, etc.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Not sure if the OP is simplifying player skill as merely having good reflexes or if the intention was just to exclude twitch based player skill specifically. There tends to be a wide gap between someone who is good at a cRPG and someone who isn't.

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

Anything "twitch based" can never be an RPG and those that try are shit because it's just too easy considering how much I've played action oriented games my whole life on PC. That's compounded by the fact that these "RPGs" with that type of combat are less nuanced, less difficult (unless the difficulty comes from jank/bloat) and much less fun than a fully action focused game.

 

[luj1]

Bro there is no way a realtime action game is the same genre as ToEE or KotC.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Right, but knowledge and its application is also a skill. It's impossible to remove player skill from the equation when it comes to how well you perform in an RPG, unless the intention of the OP was to exclude all player skill that relates to hand-eye coordination specifically.

 

[Beans00]

A male is 15% a woman, because his testosterone to estrogen ratio is 8:1

Just pointing out you're arguing with a poser(ash) that played doom for the first time in 2007(he didn't own a pc before then), and now his whole life is finding things to sperg about on the internet lol.