Decline Modders are extremely arrogant and delusional

[Bester]

modders deserve nothing.

Are mods socially useful work, i.e. needed by society? Everyone uses mods, so the answer is yes, then it has no difference with any other job.

"Deserve nothing". Please don't install any mod ever in your life, you deserve nothing from modders.

It's a sad reality that the market is simply not mentally ready to pay for mods. I'd make mods if it paid. I'd fix Pillars by cutting out 75% of the text and replacing all the systems with 3.5e. I could fix her... And if by the time I'm done nobody can pay me "cause I don't deserve it", why would I do the work?

Mods being dependent on other mods doesn't devalue the product. DLCs, expansion packs, add-ons don't cost $0 because they depend on other things. Mask of the Betrayer wasn't valueless because it required NWN2. Nobody told Obsidian they deserved nothing.

Of course as a user, I'd pirate all mods, because I don't even pay for games. But that's just the 13% Jew in me.

 

[Viata]

Everyone uses mods

 

[JarlFrank]

And if by the time I'm done nobody can pay me "cause I don't deserve it", why would I do the work?

Because you want the end result to exist?

I made Thief fan missions knowing I'll never see a cent for them just because I enjoy the process of creating them and other people playing them.

 

[Modron]

Because you want the end result to exist?

I made Thief fan missions knowing I'll never see a cent for them just because I enjoy the process of creating them and other people playing them.

How dare you undermine a communist's ability to participate in a capitalistic endeavor!

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I barely even pay for my games or not at all for my operating system. Mods lol.

 

[Vic]

moderators are also extremely arrogant and delusional

 

[Viata]

I barely even pay for my games or not at all for my operating system. Mods lol.

I don't even pay for them anymore.

 

[luj1]

Not all. Dumb thread title

 

[Eirinjas]

I steer clear of gameplay mods almost completely. They almost always break something.

 

[Bester]

Because you want the end result to exist?

I want many things in life, but I can't afford them.

If I'm spending time on modding, I'm not spending time on work, because modding pays nothing. That's a loss of money. And it's not some separate hobby, it's the exact same line of work I do for a living.

 

[ds]

Are mods socially useful work

Yes. Well, not all of them but they can improve the enjoyment of games, which is useful.

i.e. needed by society?

Not at all. Computer games themselves aren't even needed by anyone, this is all luxury. Mods are well into nice to have territory.

I'd make mods if it paid. I'd fix Pillars by cutting out 75% of the text and replacing all the systems with 3.5e. I could fix her... And if by the time I'm done nobody can pay me "cause I don't deserve it", why would I do the work?

You could also make a new game instead which no one would prevent you from selling. But you haven't. Why?

I want many things in life, but I can't afford them.

If I'm spending time on modding, I'm not spending time on work, because modding pays nothing. That's a loss of money.

You still won't be able to afford everything you want if you demand three fiddy for you mod. Todd however will appreciate the free money from your work.

And it's not some separate hobby, it's the exact same line of work I do for a living.

Unless you get to do whatever you want at work and are not constrained by things like the need for profitability then no, it's not the same line of work. If you can't find enough enjoyment to do something vaguely related to your work for it to be its own reward then that's ok though, just find another hobby. Obviously there are plenty of people who are OK with creating mods without payment. No one needs a mod industry that is inevitably going to crap out what are essentially third-party micro-transactions.

 

[Bester]

Computer games themselves aren't even needed by anyone, this is all luxury

I'm discussing it in economic terms, not in biological survival context, which we as a society have mostly transcended. In economics, something that you purchase is something that you need. You may want something, but if you don't pay, then the desire is not strong enough in relation to the monetary loss that you would incur.
Mods are in a weird situation. People agree to put in a lot of effort to install them, because it's often fraught with difficulties. The effort proves that it's a real need.
But they also very actively don't want to pay for them. It's an unstable situation, it can't go on forever. It's an infantile desire for free candies. It got exacerbated by the first paid mods implementation, where if I remember correctly Steam took 30%, bethesda 30%, and mods got 30%, which was a hilariously ridiculous theft, and nobody found it even remotely okay. So it reverted back to the status quo. Which can't last.

You could also make a new game instead which no one would prevent you from selling. But you haven't. Why?

I'm in the process. But there's an appeal to making smaller products - mods.

No one needs a mod industry

This is a very weird thing to decide and to say. It's some weird planned economy mentality, most likely from someone who doesn't even subscribe to planned economy. Let the market decide what people need, like with everything else. Roll out a system where the modder gets at least 85% of the price, let the market adjust the prices and expectations, and then if nobody needs (i.e. absolutely nobody pays), then no big deal. But I'll bet you a $20 game on Steam that's not how it would go if someone was to roll out a fair system like I described.

 

[cretin]

Well its not even true, Bester . Mods that are of sufficient quality often ended up becoming commercial games - a long history of this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_derived_from_mods

Secondly you're living and breathing in an era where incredibly untalented people producing absolute garbage have thousands of strangers supporting them through monthly subscription models, even when the stuff they produce is freely acquired. You could be one of those individuals if you so desired.

People just dont want to pay for junk. Which is what most mods are. Shit you end up uninstalling within a few hours because it becomes readily apparent that its badly made or actually detracts from the experience and so on.

 

[Bester]

People just dont want to pay for junk

You got it wrong. What people don't want in this thread is for mods to become paid, because they specifically want to use them A LOT and FREELY, which is why there's 5 pages of butthurt, and which only proves that mods aren't junk. If it was junk, nobody would be using them, or care about them.

Also, I'd argue that most games are shit (worse than junk), and people pay for it. They're soulless shit, formulaic, made for profit with no love or thought. While mods at least have some coherent vision or intent, sometimes even soul.

We got lucky to get many Fallout 1.5 mods, some good, some bad. But the good ones, I enjoyed as much as Fallout 1.
There's a ton of mods I get every time I replay BG2.
There's that dweeb who works for years on VTMB's mod that all people play with.

Go on, pretend like you never installed mods and are just here for the principle of it, defending the economic virginity of mods, "because they're junk". Does that look real to you?

 

[Bester]

I already answered you before, but I thought of something more to say.

Because you want the end result to exist?

I made Thief fan missions knowing I'll never see a cent for them just because I enjoy the process of creating them and other people playing them.

It reminds me of the difference between professional fighters and people who get into bar fights, while drunk.
They even tell fighters - "if you fight for nothing, then you're worth nothing."
When I began modding, I didn't have any worth, because I was just learning programming. Now, I know my worth and I don't work for free. I'd love to be making mods as a regular job, but greedy schizos at steam and triple-A studios can't let it happen, unless they get a 30% cut each. It doesn't benefit gamers. And as for you, I'm sure if you made more levels for years and became proficient with it, you'd want to be paid too. You just never got there.

 

[cretin]

People just dont want to pay for junk

You got it wrong. What people don't want in this thread is for mods to become paid, because they specifically want to use them A LOT and FREELY, which is why there's 5 pages of butthurt, and which only proves that mods aren't junk. If it was junk, nobody would be using them, or care about them.

Also, I'd argue that most games are shit (worse than junk), and people pay for it. They're soulless shit, formulaic, made for profit with no love or thought. While mods at least have some coherent vision or intent, sometimes even soul.

We got lucky to get many Fallout 1.5 mods, some good, some bad. But the good ones, I enjoyed as much as Fallout 1.
There's a ton of mods I get every time I replay BG2.
There's that dweeb who works for years on VTMB's mod that all people play with.

Are we talking past eachother or something here. I've just explained a situation where the mods ARE being paid for. More than that, these modders are often being supported in lieu of anything even actively being developed. I picked one patreon skyrim modder name at random off google and he has over 1000 paid subs (this is some 2-3k USD/month), and all his does is make shitty waifu costumes and animations. Presumably, not even all that often. You could be one of these people, but you're not, and I suspect your actual issue is that you're afraid people won't pay for what *you* want to create. Which is fine, I sympathize, but its a problem every creative field faces and I'm failing to see what makes you distinct from people who work a job but want to create music or write a book. I'm sure these people also think theres something wrong that no one wants to pay them to make synthwave music or whatever.

Go on, pretend like you never installed mods and are just here for the principle of it, defending the economic virginity of mods, "because they're junk". Does that look real to you?

I've never claimed to have not installed mods or never to have enjoyed mods. In fact, I count some mods among the greatest gaming experiences I've ever had, and I *would* pay money for those. Point of fact, I DID pay money for them when they became commercial releases.

However, the vast, vast majority of mods I've installed have been regrettable and have usually been uninstalled a few hours later when I realize how utterly shit they are. Why would I pay money for that experience? Which brings us to your very apt analogy just not in the way you intended:

It reminds me of the difference between professional fighters and people who get into bar fights, while drunk.
They even tell fighters - "if you fight for nothing, then you're worth nothing."
When I began modding, I didn't have any worth, because I was just learning programming. Now, I know my worth and I don't work for free. I'd love to be making mods as a regular job, but greedy schizos at steam and triple-A studios can't let it happen, unless they

The best fighters in the world did spend years fighting for free in amateur organizations - thats HOW they got to a stage where they can say if you want to see my shit pay my fee or fuck off.

 

[Bester]

Are we talking past eachother or something here.

Patreon is not what we're talking about here. It's a question of discoverability and being able to sell a finished product, instead of dragging out development for as long as possible to keep milking your customers. It's an entirely different model, they're not selling a mod as their product. Paid mods need to be displayed on nexus mods or whatever is the most popular platform.

The best fighters in the world did spend years fighting for free in amateur organizations - thats HOW they got to a stage where they can say if you want to see my shit pay my fee or fuck off.

Yeah, once they get the necessary experience and skill to be at the top, they no longer fight for free. But while they were fighting for free, they were worthless. Nothing to disagree about here.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Genuinely good mods (which is super rare, but exists) are almost always not mods per se, but pretty much full blown projects with a, often sizeable, team working on them led by manager(s) with clear vision. They are also almost exclusively developed for old, classic games with the team being composed of passionate individuals who have their own sources of income and who could (and often do) monetize their modding work to at least some degree of success.

The "modern" modding scene is pretty much 100% focused on:

1. Games that are not worth playing in the first place and the modding is a weird form of copium. "Just install these mods and that shit game turns into 9/10 experience, honest bro". Which is never even close to being true, btw.
2. Games where the userbase is largely not interested in the game(play) itself, but uses it as fuel for weird degenerate stuff. This often, but not always, overlaps with group 1.
3. Less prevalent, but utterly bizarre phenomenon of people trying to turn one game that exists into another game that exists for reasons unknown.

Where the real question is "why bother at all?" and not "can I get money for it?".

 

[Damned Registrations]

Genuinely good mods (which is super rare, but exist) are almost always not mods per se, but pretty much full blown projects with a, often sizeable, team working on them led by manager(s) with clear vision. They are also almost exclusively developed for old, classic games with the team being composed of passionate individuals who have their own sources of income and who could (and often do) monetize their modding work to at least some degree of success.

No idea what this guy is talking about.

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

 

[anvi]

I could live with their arrogance and delusion if they at least made good mods, which they don't. Mods today are mostly hairstyles and eye textures because people are retards.

 

[Ravielsk]

Are mods socially useful work, i.e. needed by society? Everyone uses mods, so the answer is yes, then it has no difference with any other job.

Mods by their very nature are a hobbyist endeavor. By virtue of that they are subject to whole different standard than anything commercial or as you put it a "job". You can make broken mods as a hobby and then let or even expect others to fix bugs and incompatibilities(that includes updating whenever a new patch rolls out). You can "borrow" from other mods because ultimately you are all pursuing the same thing and you can be a little shit heel about it all because you are doing as a hobby for yourself first and foremost, other people benefiting is ultimately just a bonus.

But once you introduce money all of that and I mean ALL OF THAT goes the fuck away. Borrowing even scripts from other mods turns into straight up theft. Selling a broken mod is no longer something you are allowed to even contemplate and having it conflict with other paid mods is shaky ground at best and fraud at worst. And being a little shit that deletes everything or bans people for not clapping hard enough turns into a very straight forward crime.

Money as a requirement completely changes the standard you are expect to operate under and most modders are absolutely not prepared nor willing to take on that standard. Hence why they deserve nothing, because once you start to expect something you are no longer a hobbyist or a modder, you are a developer, a publisher, a business entity. Those are two entirely separate worlds and just because you can have a blurry middle ground in the form of patreon changes nothing about that.

 

[Stavrophore]

Are there any other companies beside bethesda who had normalized modding culture as a way to release unfinished junk that will be patched for free by modders?

 

[anvi]

Bohemia have started doing it. Indie games do it a lot too.

 

[Modron]

Are there any other companies beside bethesda who had normalized modding culture as a way to release unfinished junk that will be patched for free by modders?

Creative Assembly and Paradox?

 

[Vic]

it's a community effort