Mature and rational discussion re: itemization in Pillars of Eternity

[roshan]

Having lots of normal items or even blank slots is fine as long as you can look forward to some really cool epic artifact. Having whole party with every single piece of gear epic is actually pretty bad, but fine in a fantasy world like FR or PoE - it's not better for the system than having pure boring normal items, but a bit better for lore. Having whole party with mostly normal items, deciding who should wear a single decent belt with nice bonuses and then who should wear the epic belt of giant strength changing him vastly is cool.

Everything being +1 or 'fine' is seriously the worst because you get no excitement for loot, nothing to boast about your character, everything is plain. The most "interesting" weapons in this game have spells cast on hit, but they might as well not have them, it's not more noticeable in use than 'fine' enchantment. When I found a sword against ghosts in area with ghosts I thought it was cool, for 5 seconds, until I noticed it's still not better than my fine weapons, and it's just a single sword that might give me at best a few points of damage in a bigger fight.

All the rings/cloaks of +5 deflection or +5 all defenses might as well not exist, or stats should be included in level progression. You just end up improving all party members very slightly evenly. DR against certain type is an interesting idea, but done very badly, since it can be pretty good if metagamed but otherwise useless. You just get it as additional stats on some random character and forget about it. No one ever thinks: "this area has lots of slicing enemies, let's get this sick slicing protection for my tank", especially since enemy types change quite often and a quite a bit have multiple damage types.

Increased AOE on items sounds cool, but it's too boring with 110% - sometimes it's useful, most of the time doesn't change anything. It could have been made 200% but as an activated ability (possibly without recovery after using) that would disable movement for next 30 seconds and also the armor with this skill would be artifact that can't be further improved. Some people would use it all the time, others would prefer just a better magical armor to not root your mage in place with low defenses.

Yes, another issue is that you have only two weapon sets that can't be changed in combat. And usually this means one ranged and one melee set. So in actual combat, if you found that the enemy was resistant to blunt weapons, and you happen to have a flail equipped, you have no choice except to reload.

So much of the mechanics of this game is so damn stupid that you have design decisions that are at complete odds with each other. I thought that the multiple thresholds was there to encourage players to think about what weapons they were using, and that the game was designed to minimize reloading which is supposedly degeneracy. But the way it plays out, you have no choice over what weapons to use in battle unless you reload.

There have been many times when I've wanted my front liner to switch from sword and board to two hander and vice versa, but don't have the option to do so. Apparently basic IE gameplay features now need to be purchased at the expense of other perks. In the sequel our characters might not be able to initiate dialogue, open doors, start combat or travel to other areas without purchasing the appropriate perk first.

 

[Zed]

I think presentation plays a big role in how items are perceived.

BG2 - hand-drown illustration, short custom anecdote.

POE - generic boots graphics, generic description.

 

[Blaine]

roshan
You know you can select an ability at level-up that grants you an additional weapon set, right? This was part of Josh's plan to end fun from the very beginning. Instead of selecting a cool and exciting new ability when you level up, you may instead elect to choose another two slots to fill with boring items, then pay a lot of money to enchant them as well on top of the twelve-plus items you're enchanting for each party member, just in case you need a different damage type.

 

[roshan]

roshan
You know you can select an ability at level-up that grants you an additional weapon set, right? This was part of Josh's plan to end fun from the very beginning. Instead of selecting a cool and exciting new ability when you level up, you may instead elect to choose another two slots to fill with boring items, pay a lot of money to enchant them as well on top of the twelve-plus items you're enchanting for each party member, just in case you need a different damage type.

Yes, I know, which is why I mentioned:

"There have been many times when I've wanted my front liner to switch from sword and board to two hander and vice versa, but don't have the option to do so. Apparently basic IE gameplay features now need to be purchased at the expense of other perks. In the sequel our characters might not be able to initiate dialogue, open doors, start combat or travel to other areas without purchasing the appropriate perk first.".....

 

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

Items in POE are generaly boring as fuck, maybe it gets better at latter stages of game but persistent black screen of death prevents me from discovering that. And with Obsidian being more interested in shitty jokes than bugs I don't think I'll get any further in game anytime soon.

 

[Grunker]

I think presentation plays a big role in how items are perceived.

BG2 - hand-drown illustration, short custom anecdote.

POE - generic boots graphics, generic description.

Yes, it's a problem, but it's definetely not everything.

 

[Trodat]

We should get hand-drawn illustrations for PoE2, this time they just lacked time.

 

[Gord]

BG2 - hand-drown illustration, short custom anecdote.

POE - generic boots graphics, generic description.

Could be worse. They do have unique descriptions on many items. And unique models in some cases.

 

[felipepepe]

Man, even the Blade of the Endless Paths is boring:

What a disappointment, all that build up for this.... It doesn't need to be the most powerful weapon in the game, but at least be something cool. It's just a Superb Estoc with 1.2 Speed and the rather common Marking ability. And it's a fucking Estoc, that only has Pierce damage, so it's not even an all-around sword. I enchanted the Justice two-handed sword you get on Act 1 and I think it's a much better weapon than this one.

 

[Athelas]

Meanwhile, the high-functionists autists among PoE's fan base are ecstatic with the itemization.

I hope mods will be able to add some unique effects to the items.

 

[TheGreatOne]

One quibble I've yet to see mentioned (or at least explored in-depth) is how dry, regimented, uniform, and just overall utterly predictable the itemization can be in this game.

Roguey
The most "elegantly designed RPG of all time" following in the foot steps of giants In the name of popamole balance, of course

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Well, that's not really an acceptable alternative. Good weapons from shops cost half your money, so it's almost never a good idea to buy them.

Josh was butthurt that people were able to afford the cool weapons in BG2 and Torment, so he's ensured you can only look at them unless you want to severely retard your stronghold upkeep and enchantment budget. That is literally the way he thinks, fully supported by certain persons who believe that if you get one nice thing, you should be punished and made miserable for it. Otherwise, you might have fun, and that would just be imbalanced.

Wait, are you... Having money problems... In this game....?

The economy in this game is utterly broken. There's no way a remotely experienced crpg player will ever want for cash. Tell me you're joking.

 

[Blaine]

The economy in this game is utterly broken. There's no way a remotely experienced crpg player will ever want for cash. Tell me you're joking.

Well, I've restarted twice, so I may not have found the money faucet yet, which from what I'm hearing means exploring more of Od Nua.

Currently I'm clearing Raedric's Hold on Hard with a level 4 party of 5, head-on. All these armors and weapons and shit will net several thousand or so, so that's something.

I've never had money problems per se, I just rarely feel comfortable outright purchasing a weapon that costs five thousand judengilde when I've managed to earn barely more than that scouring each area and sidequest on the way to the first hub.

 

[Shadenuat]

You don't get piles of cash before starting second act. But then with bounties, mega dungeon, tons of fine/exceptional stuff and constant stream of coins from your fortress you just can't find anything to actually spend it on.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

The economy in this game is utterly broken. There's no way a remotely experienced crpg player will ever want for cash. Tell me you're joking.

Well, I've restarted twice, so I may not have found the money faucet yet, which from what I'm hearing means exploring more of Od Nua.

Currently I'm clearing Raedric's Hold on Hard with a level 4 party of 5, head-on. All these armors and weapons and shit will net several thousand or so, so that's something.

I've never had money problems per se, I just rarely feel comfortable outright purchasing a weapon that costs five thousand judengilde when I've managed to earn barely more than that scouring each area and sidequest on the way to the first hub.

Then you've barely started the game o_O Shouldn't you at least play some 20-30% of it before judging?

 

[Globbi]

I think presentation plays a big role in how items are perceived.

BG2 - hand-drown illustration, short custom anecdote.

POE - generic boots graphics, generic description.

Presentation definitely helps. It's really nice for lore. At very least people could be excited to see new item just to read.

We should get hand-drawn illustrations for PoE2, this time they just lacked time.

Illustrations like that shouldn't take a lot of time. Of course it's another thing you have to add, it takes some resources, but it's not a big problem. It can be (just like it was in BG) a quick sketch, uneven, not completely true to the model. Concept artists don't do much at later stages anyway so someone could do a bunch of such illustrations in a single day. A lot of concept sketches have been done before models anyway, they just needed in total a few hours of someone's work to make them into images usable in game.

Descriptions are more important IMO, and there should be no problem with those. They simply should have made fewer books and more unique item descriptions, so not really more time than was put into writing. Most of stories for item descriptions could have been done before items were created. It was obvious something like boots that improve speed would be in game, it was obvious an epic sword or other weapons would be in game. Stories unrelated to places where you find the items are actually much better since it produces impression of larger, deeper world, where more interesting things happen other than your encounters.

___


Still, presentation is less important than mechanics, especially in this game.

 

[hiver]

There have been many times when I've wanted my front liner to switch from sword and board to two hander and vice versa, but don't have the option to do so. Apparently basic IE gameplay features now need to be purchased at the expense of other perks. In the sequel our characters might not be able to initiate dialogue, open doors, start combat or travel to other areas without purchasing the appropriate perk first.

You just need to left click on your weapon. Provided you have those already equipped.

And wanting to change weapons as much as you want any time you want is really a stupid idea. YOu have the bestiary to check each enemy type, and you have sneaking to see what enemies await. And you have a bloody automatic pause game when seeing an enemy in options. Use them.

I've never had money problems per se, I just rarely feel comfortable outright purchasing a weapon that costs five thousand judengilde when I've managed to earn barely more than that scouring each area and sidequest on the way to the first hub.

Then you've barely started the game o_O Shouldn't you at least play some 20-30% of it before judging?

what a

Blaine is just a crying bitch.

 

[Branm]

Well, it does have some uniques items at least, with IE-like descriptions and shit. In that regard it's better than, say, D:OS.
Problem is that most of the time (there are a few exceptions, imo) they don't really stand out much.

Then again to be fair PoE is better than almost all aspects then D:OS so yeah....The only thing I'll give Divinity is turn based combat and the interaction between the elements....Other than that its inferior in every single way...

 

[Branm]

Items in POE are generaly boring as fuck, maybe it gets better at latter stages of game but persistent black screen of death prevents me from discovering that. And with Obsidian being more interested in shitty jokes than bugs I don't think I'll get any further in game anytime soon.

Shity jokes????? Must be talking about Larian.....wtf....I'm 40 hours in and haven't encountered a single major game breaking bug....And i should mention I work in QA....Not for pathetic video games anymore where you dont get paid shit BUT i do know the fucking difference between a A level game breaking bug and some D graphic anomaly....

 

[Blaine]

Then you've barely started the game o_O Shouldn't you at least play some 20-30% of it before judging?

Nah. The pattern of boring itemization established itself in such a way that the conclusion was pretty obvious, and the replies to this thread have borne that out.

If we're just talking about the economy, it had occurred to me that the economy might be tuned for midgame and later, yes. I've said so before in the main thread. If what you're saying is true, though, it's just borked, and in the beginning everything is expensive as fuck, then suddenly you can easily afford everything you could possibly need. Seems it's even more bottom-poor and top-heavy than Fallout 2's economy.

what a

Blaine is just a crying bitch.

Yeah, that's it, I want more money in a video game and I'm crying about it on the Codex. That will solve my problem, and afterward, I expect everyone to pat my back and make me feel better. You've got me pegged.

However, it could also be that Josh's "balancing" turns out to have created more problems than it solved, which is slightly annoying, but mostly humorous, and shot through with rich veins of smugness ripe for the mining.

To be fair, now that I'm more experienced with the game, I have found/lucked into almost an entire five-party-member spread of enchanted weapons, and enchanted all of my armors that didn't already have it with +2 DR. I've also done well collecting Rings of Deflection et al. So at the moment, and with my PC being a Rogue, I'm set and bulldozing through enemies fairly effortlessly, surprising even me.

 

[roshan]

YOu have the bestiary to check each enemy type, and you have sneaking to see what enemies await. And you have a bloody automatic pause game when seeing an enemy in options. Use them.

Wow very nice, time consuming and pointless three step non-solution to my problem.

 

[hiver]

Yeah, that's it, I want more money in a video game and I'm crying about it on the Codex. That will solve my problem, and afterward, I expect everyone to pat my back and make me feel better. You've got me pegged.

No, thats not what i meant. And im not aware of codex being that friendly...

What i mean by that is that youre a classical spoiled brat who cries because he cant buy the best items in the game - RIGHT AWAY!
Because you think the game should give you money for free and that prices of special items should be extremely low.

YOu have the bestiary to check each enemy type, and you have sneaking to see what enemies await. And you have a bloody automatic pause game when seeing an enemy in options. Use them.

Wow very nice, time consuming and pointless three step non-solution to my problem.

Fuck you and your problem and your vacuous declaratory statements.

 

[Blaine]

No, thats not what i meant. And im not aware of codex being that friendly...

What i mean by that is that youre a classical spoiled brat who cries because he cant buy the best items in the game - RIGHT AWAY!
Because you think the game should give you money for free and that prices of special items should be extremely low.

There are a lot of things wrong with this statement, but the biggest thing wrong with it is that according to pretty much everyone, after Act 2 begins you do essentially get money for free, and then you can buy all the best items in the game if you so desire.

So if, in theory, I actually felt the way you imagine I feel, then guess what? The game as-is actually contains the glaring flaw you're lecturing me about.

You're going to have to choose between attacking me personally and defending the game. You can't really do both at the same time in this context.

 

[hiver]

I dont think so, its just that by the second act you earned that money because you put in some hard work - and you still cant buy absolutely everything, which means having to make atleast some choices - which is good.

 

[Blaine]

I dont think so, its just that by the second act you earned that money because you put in some hard work - and you still cant buy absolutely everything, which means having to make atleast some choices - which is good.

In my view, rapidly flip-flopping from being able to afford very little to being able to afford just about everything you need (not everything, but everything you need) is bad. There should be more of a gradient.

Of course, most cRPG economies break at some point... it's only a matter of when. Remember though that Josh was shooting for balance.