KOTOR - Taris Review Ala Crappily Written

[Vault Dweller]

If anything, once her superiors find out she's been bedding; they'll probably punish her. But, yeah, it would have been nice, to charm your way in instead of being *forced* to use the robot

What I liked about her is that it was a short attempt to show the Sith as the guys who just doing their jobs, of course, the job is to conquer the universe :twisted: , but.... I don't think that the Sith would be upset if you try to help them, first, they need help in dealing with some elements, second, unlike Garth, you are a nobody, you look like the natives, as long as you don't ask stupid questions like what planet is this and have you seen my republic buddies, you should be fine.

3. No, he doesn't have to, of course; but since your mission is to find Bastila (albeit admittedly i=t be ncie if you *didn't* have to find her; but oh well); you will invariably ask about her drawing attention to the fact that you are not exactly on the Sith's side.

Why? The Sith are looking for Bastila, you are working for the Sith, it would make sense that you are looking for her too. It would also make sense to befriend the Sith to create confusion and misdirection to ensure that you get to Bastila first.

That said, I could probably look at every quest/situation in the game and suggest another 1, or 2 ways at least that could have been added to give the player more ways to deal with the situation.

Of course, fair enough, but like I said, I didn't invent new situations when I asked my original questions. You have to get the droid, why can't I get it earlier? You have an option to destroy the Republic machinery, why can't I do it for the Sith? The game is awfully linear, unlike FO, and that's what keeping it from becoming a much better game. That, and the combat. And the sound problem. (if you disable the sound, there is no crashes or slowdowns).

it has qualities that it destroys FO with.

Such as? Don't say it's the combat

 

[HanoverF]

I view the crashes as some kind of safety mechanism, like if you ingest something hazardous your body can induce vomiting and save your life...

 

[Volourn]

I agree with all your suggestions there Vault. they definbietly would have made the game better. What sounds problems? Otehr than afew stutters here, and there; spound works perfectly. And, I have had zero crashes sicne my stupidty found out.

As for what KOTOR does better than FO? That's easy, and it's almost undeniable (there's alwasy at least one disagreeable sort ) - the joinable npcs are almost universally magnificantly done. As for the combat; KOTOR's has grown on me as t is fun. However, it is NOT the equal of FO's.

 

[dipdipdip]

1. You rare supposedly able to threaten her into giving the robot for free. I never tried it since I was being good; but suppsoedly you can. Hmmm..

On the subject of Persuade:

What's funny is that my second character, a straight-forward fighter who'd had a zero in Persuade throughout the game, was able to make a successful Persuade check then (I'm pretty sure the choice to threaten the vendor was a Persuade branch; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong -- although I'd definitely made succesful Persuade checks at least two or three times playing as him). He wasn't penalized force-wise either, if I remember correctly.

I'd first played as a do-gooding Scoundrel and pumped a lot of points into Persuade. On Taris, by being able to persuade the female sith soldier to invite me to her party (so as to nab their gear), and by haggling with the robot merchant for a considerably cheaper price, I'd found that Persuade seemed pretty useful. The second time around, with a Soldier whose Persuade I'd made a conscious effort to keep at zero, I was able to do those same things. This time, I was better-rewarded by not having to pay any money to the robot merchant by threatening her and had my alignment in tact to boot. It's funny that he ended up getting the better payoff through words than the character who specialized in dialogues did. I was also able to get the female soldier to invite me just fine.

On Dantooine, I'd again thought my fast-talking Scoundrel was pretty nifty, being able to talk Juhani out of her killing herself via Persuade, but I again was able to do the same with my Soldier by simply following a different branch.

Only on Tattooine, did I find that that utilizing persuasion payed off in any substantial way, because as far as I know (and I hadn't really experimented with this), you have to pay for HK-47 if you want to go about doing the good thing. I don't recall if you can so easily threaten him as on Taris.

Yes, you can get out of a few, select battles, but they're tiny, and I don't feel that it's worth specializing in Persuade when it's greatest use is for haggling and, yes, for getting out of a few battles, but the few battles are so easily winnable regardless. I never thought, "Whew, I would've been in a sure fix if it weren't for Persuade."

 

[Vault Dweller]

I view the crashes as some kind of safety mechanism, like if you ingest something hazardous your body can induce vomiting and save your life...

That's a good one, HanoverF Speaking of safety mechanism, after every KOTOR session I have to play Jedi Academy to remind myself that lightsaber combat doesn't have to suck

What sounds problems? Otehr than afew stutters here, and there; spound works perfectly.

It does, but it also causes crashes and slowdowns on less then uber systems.

the joinable npcs are almost universally magnificantly done.

Magnificantly? In what way? I think that Ian shows his mistrust in a very assertive way by shooting you in the back He's not much of a talker, he's a doer Ok, seriously, I fail to see how attaching some stories ranging from cheesy to not bad and thowing in idiotic lines ( Zaalbar, your breath is stinky :shock: or no, T3M4, the droids weren't frightened ). Do I care about Bastila's mom or Mission's brother? No. The only NPC that I like is HK47. His "can I shoot him now" attitude is hilarious. Anyway, back to the NPCs, like I said before, that line "talk to ...., he either looks like he/she has something to say or he/she needs to use a washroom " is annoying, " I'll tel you more when you level up" is annoying as well. Dakkon's circles and subsequent story that required increased abilities were well presented, feeding you a story one paragraph at a time is not.

 

[HanoverF]

HK47 is the only remotely well done joinable NPC, and bioware even blew that by having this homicidal maniac robot used to negotiate peace with the sand people!!!

I have a uber system (well not really, but well above reccomended levels) and get awful slowdown just running around, my PC starts looking like a running trophy, and will bounce all around the screen randomly, or get caught up on a joinable NPC and not go anywhere, if I lower the screen resolution and graphic settings, the same thing happens, it just looks a billion times worse. Battles against more then two opponents are pretty craptacularly choppy as well.

I would prefer Carth to open up into my back with a burst from a blaster FO style then the lame lazy ham handed 'It looks like Carth has something to say' interludes...

 

[Vault Dweller]

I have a uber system (well not really, but well above reccomended levels) and get awful slowdown just running around, my PC starts looking like a running trophy, and will bounce all around the screen randomly, or get caught up on a joinable NPC and not go anywhere, if I lower the screen resolution and graphic settings, the same thing happens, it just looks a billion times worse. Battles against more then two opponents are pretty craptacularly choppy as well.

Don't lower the resolution, it doesn't help much, the sound is the problem, disable it using the start up configuration, and you'd not have any slowdowns. You'd have any sound either which sucks, but that's the trade off. At least you'd be able to play.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

As for what KOTOR does better than FO? That's easy, and it's almost undeniable (there's alwasy at least one disagreeable sort ) - the joinable npcs are almost universally magnificantly done. As for the combat; KOTOR's has grown on me as t is fun. However, it is NOT the equal of FO's.

I disagree, Ian never interrupted me when I'm trying to get from Point A to Point B to have a chit chat with dogmeat.

 

[Spazmo]

I don't think Dogmeat ever complained about losing his wings to the PC, either.

 

[Volourn]

Good. That's because Dogmeat deserves to die. :twisted:

 

[kumquatq3]

HK47 is the only remotely well done joinable NPC, and bioware even blew that by having this homicidal maniac robot used to negotiate peace with the sand people!!!

I disagree. I think the joinable NPCs were some of the most enjoyable I have ever seen in a RPG. They (mostly) had great dialogue, very solid voice acting, and where actually useful in combat.

HK-47 was great. If you remember, when he is with the sand people, he wants you to kill them all. Its not like he just became docile. He is just a joy to have in you party, as he almost always has a hilarious dark comment lined up. Not to mention he isn't a slouch in combat either. I view him as the 2nd best NPC in the game.

I can see how you might think Zaalbar, T3-M4, and possibly Mission and Juhani are a bit boring. I don't see how you can't appreciate Bastila, Canderous, Carth, and especially Jolee and HK-47. Even if you don't directly connect with them or like who they are. They are well done none the less. Hell, Jolee might be my favorite NPC of all time.

I disagree, Ian never interrupted me when I'm trying to get from Point A to Point B to have a chit chat with dogmeat.

I thought that added to the feel that the NPCs arn't just drones that follow you around. Some of those pauses in the game are actually funny! Did you see the one with Bastila and Mission?

EDIT: I don't think anyone can seriously argue that FO1 had better NPCs. In almost any regard. I didn't get my NPCs stuck in doorways so I couldn't leave in KOTOR. It kinda makes up for the time lost via NPC dialogue.

 

[dipdipdip]

Well, I for one did not appreciate Bastilla's following my character around, humping his leg. I tried to play the role of a good jedi, "ignoring my feelings" and dodging her advances. Frankly, I just didn't want to know about it. Because I supposedly didn't kiss her, there is a scene where she denounces her passion for me, dismissing it as being only the effects of the bond between us, and gets upset with me, telling me something along the lines of, "if only you hadn't kept pushing me." Right. It seems Bioware assumed that every person playing the game would jump at the chance to have a romance with the porcelain doll, Bastilla. What was I allowed to respond with? One was a puppy dog-eyed b-b-b-but Bastilla!-type response, the other a sour grapes type deal. I think there were probably two or three more choices, but they were to similar effect -- you know how it is. I'd honestly felt that they'd effectively killed my character, mister ideal, pillar of a jedi, at that moment.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Jolee is probably one of my favorite NPCs to come along in quite some time. Everytime he opened his mouth, I looked forward to it. I got the best laughs from the game out of him. The voice actor that did him most definitely earned his pay, IMO. I loved striking up a conversation with him and then saying nevermind just for his response. Classic stuff.

As for Bastilla... well, I didn't like how they handled her, but it didn't ruin the game for me at least.

 

[dipdipdip]

:D

I do regret that I hadn't spent much time with either Jolee or HK-47 who really seem to be by and large the favorites. Well, I did have Jolee and Canderous along for the ride most of the time, but I didn't get "involved" with Jolee. I was more focused on doing Canderous' and, I think, Bastilla's arcs.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I played a female character specifically for the sole reason of avoiding the romance with Bastila. I really hate romance crap in CRPGs.

 

[kumquatq3]

I played a female character specifically for the sole reason of avoiding the romance with Bastila. I really hate romance crap in CRPGs.

You sure it just wasn't to romance Carth? :wink: (P.S. you can as a female FYI)

 

[Sol Invictus]

Magnificantly? In what way? I think that Ian shows his mistrust in a very assertive way by shooting you in the back He's not much of a talker, he's a doer Ok, seriously, I fail to see how attaching some stories ranging from cheesy to not bad and thowing in idiotic lines ( Zaalbar, your breath is stinky :shock: or no, T3M4, the droids weren't frightened ). Do I care about Bastila's mom or Mission's brother? No.

Well, that's just YOUR problem then isn't it? If you lack suspension of disbelief or find yourself unable to play in character with these NPCs I just don't think you'd feel anything more than boredom when playing with an NPC in any other different game at this time. I can't really think of any game right now, short of Planescape: Torment containing NPCs as interactive as these. That said, I don't think -anyone- actually feels for the characters themselves but they do, at the very least, exhibit some sense of humanity in them and don't behave like a bunch of walking meatbags a la TOEE and Fallout.

You also need to remember that some of the lines, and some of the responses you can use are just in there for purposes of humor. If you dislike a game because it's not -serious- all the time, then you've got a stick up your ass. It's as simple as that. Why you would fault a game for having a "your breath is stinky" response is anyone's guess.

The only NPC that I like is HK47. His "can I shoot him now" attitude is hilarious. Anyway, back to the NPCs, like I said before, that line "talk to ...., he either looks like he/she has something to say or he/she needs to use a washroom " is annoying, " I'll tel you more when you level up" is annoying as well. Dakkon's circles and subsequent story that required increased abilities were well presented, feeding you a story one paragraph at a time is not.

As I recall, Dak'kon required you to have increased abilities (Wisdom and Intelligence) to read more intricate parts of his circle and most of the responses were canned. You just had to try each of the responses until you got the correct one to complete his circles, but only having a high wisdom score would allow you to select them. Hardly as well presented as you claim. It's a limitation inherent in most computer games. The designer just doesn't want to fuck the gamer over by forcing a reload due to a failed dialogue response. Of course this isn't to say that neither PSTorment or KOTOR have dialogue responses that aren't critical choices - there are. It's simply that the canned responses are more inherent in the way the games play out due to their linearity. Like with the cat girl, for example - you can't get her to join you in your dark side as one of the responses. You can either kill her or make her see the error of her ways. That stinks

Btw, the romance crap with Bastila is pretty well done considering. Unlike the canned bullshit of BG2, I have to say. .I don't think I want to try the Carth romance, though. No. Anyone up for that?

Hanover wrotE:
HK47 is the only remotely well done joinable NPC, and bioware even blew that by having this homicidal maniac robot used to negotiate peace with the sand people!!!

Argument: Why is that bad? He follows YOUR orders, and above all else, he's still a droid. He does, after all, beg for you to allow him to kill them and even so does not go against your wishes not to. I just don't see what's wrong with that.

Observation: Complaining about that is amountable to typical retarded meatbag behavior.

talking meatbag also wrote:
I have a uber system (well not really, but well above reccomended levels) and get awful slowdown just running around, my PC starts looking like a running trophy, and will bounce all around the screen randomly, or get caught up on a joinable NPC and not go anywhere, if I lower the screen resolution and graphic settings, the same thing happens, it just looks a billion times worse. Battles against more then two opponents are pretty craptacularly choppy as well.

Understanding: That's to do with the sound - it's a bug.

Solution: Disable it and the game won't become choppy. It also only happens in certain areas - such as interiors, but only during loads. If you exit a certain 'choppy' area and wish to play the game smoothly, you'll have to save the game and restart it. The game should run smoothly until you reach another choppy area.

Opinion: It's irritating as hell but discovering this workaround has made my game a lot more enjoyable.

Preemptive response: If anyone says or thinks that the Fallout NPCs are superior in any way to those in KOTOR, I have this to say to you pathetic meatbag: stop fucking your mom.

 

[HanoverF]

I don't see how you can't appreciate Bastila, Canderous, Carth

Probably cause they were extremly cliche characters/interludes. HK47 is a totaly evil homicidal maniac robot itching for a fight, the fact that you use him to negotiate peace with the sand people proves Bio has their heads up their butts when it comes to character. There should have been another translation solution, if you tried to use HK47 he should have translated "we want peace" into "We want to rape your women and eat your babies"

 

[kumquatq3]

I don't see how you can't appreciate Bastila, Canderous, Carth

Probably cause they were extremly cliche characters/interludes. HK47 is a totaly evil homicidal maniac robot itching for a fight, the fact that you use him to negotiate peace with the sand people proves Bio has their heads up their butts when it comes to character. There should have been another translation solution, if you tried to use HK47 he should have translated "we want peace" into "We want to rape your women and eat your babies"

First, as I said before and Exituim said above me, HK wants to kill all the sand people. BUT he is a droid, so he follows his masters commands. I don't see why people can't understand that. He is isn't supposed to be able to excercise that kind of free will.

As for the NPCs being cliche, what game has better ones? I am sure you can't (honestly) think of many. That being said, in any great story there are cliche charecters. Think of your favorite movie. I'd bet most of its people are cliche. I hate the word cliche.

EDIT: Some of you guys seem to me like you have been over thinking every RPG that comes out for so long now that you can't simply sit back and enjoy a game anymore.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Editing

Response: You can simply tell her to end the relationship by the time you arrive at your third planet. It needn't continue. By 'ignoring' her in some responses, you're more or less flirting with her. I find it somewhat realistic as I've been in similar situations.

Opinion: Also, I'd hardly call any character, or even a real life meatbag 'non-cliché' if we go by the term these days.

Conjecture: If Bioware or anyone else were to have made a character which was conflicted internally with his desire for revenge and a desire to let it all go, he'd be defined by some of you meatbags as a 'clichéd angsty internally conflicted meatbag'. If he was out for justice, he'd be known as the 'clichéd avenger vigilante meatbag'.

Statement: Honestly, give it a fucking rest. It's much better to have a so-called clichéd character than to have a two dimensional meatbag whose sole purpose is to behave as a mule/combatant for you, a la Fallout. Even if that is the meatbag's purpose, it deserves a little personality to make the game interesting in that aspect.

Question: Can any of you honestly say you found the NPCs in TOEE to be at the very least interesting?

 

[kumquatq3]

I think Bastila is one of the best NPCs in the game, as well as dynamic IMO. She can be bitchy, warm, dark, caring, vunerable (via all the "I'm having DS problems" lines), and funny. In fact, If you have her with Mission (not sure if this only happens on tatoonine) you will see one of the funniest scenes in the game, IMO.

She is easily more dynamic than HK-47 or Jolee (tho I prefer them over her, personally). Listen to what she says, just don't hate the NPC because Bio decided to stick in "eye candy" for those 16 year olds playing.

Not to mention the voice acting really sells her.

 

[Volourn]

kum, i rmemeber thats cene with bastila and mission. Very funny.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you lack suspension of disbelief or find yourself unable to play in character with these NPCs I just don't think you'd feel anything more than boredom when playing with an NPC in any other different game at this time.

What do suspension and disbelief have to do with poorly written characters? Tell me one thing, does Carth behavior strike you as that of a famous war hero? Yes or No will do.

You also need to remember that some of the lines, and some of the responses you can use are just in there for purposes of humor. If you dislike a game because it's not -serious- all the time, then you've got a stick up your ass. It's as simple as that. Why you would fault a game for having a "your breath is stinky" response is anyone's guess.

I like humor in games, HK-47 is hilarious because it makes sense and fits, but "stinky breath" comment is not funny and it doesn't fit. Replace Z with some human, you just saved his ass, would you crack a joke that he smells or his hair looks funny?

As I recall, Dak'kon required you to have increased abilities (Wisdom and Intelligence) to read more intricate parts of his circle and most of the responses were canned.

You recalled correctly. What I like about it that splitting his story makes sense, you have to be very smart and wise to figure the circle. Why can't I hear Carth's story in one piece right away or whenever the time is right (when you leave Taris)? Is it so important to the plot? No. Considering that I have a number of NPCs it's quite a chore to go and see if anybody has another sentence to add to their stories. It's absolutely unnecessary. There are times when NPCs have something important to say, something that couldn't be said earlier like when Morte tells you that you've already been to the Fortress, but do I really have to endure Carth's whining only to learn that his mentor betrayed him and his son is missing?

Observation: Complaining about that is amountable to typical retarded meatbag behavior.

lol

 

[kumquatq3]

What do suspension and disbelief have to do with poorly written characters? Tell me one thing, does Carth behavior strike you as that of a famous war hero? Yes or No will do.

If you mean does Carth act like you would expect a cliche :wink: war hero to act? No he doesn't. He is more dynamic than that. Possibly ::gasp:: Bio was trying to make him appear human and frail, yet still be a soldier.

Besides, if he was all soldier then he woud overlap with Canderous charactor.

EDIT:

I like humor in games, HK-47 is hilarious because it makes sense and fits, but "stinky breath" comment is not funny and it doesn't fit. Replace Z with some human, you just saved his ass, would you crack a joke that he smells or his hair looks funny?

So just because one joke fell flat or because a person stepped out of charactor (which is entirely human) for a second, that damns the NPCs? I am a bit foggy on your stance here.

 

[Volourn]

VD, maybe Carth doesn't spill his guts to you right away sicn ehe doesn't trust you enough right away. Do you tell people you don't trust all the sordd secrets fo your past, and yes I *know* you have sordid secrets.

How, again, is Carth "poorly" written? Because he doesn't spill his guts the first time you say hi to him? Hmm..

As for "stinky breath" comment; I hope you do realize that that joke is coming from the mouth of a 14 year year old girl. It very much fits the character. It also shows the kind of open friendship The Walking Carpet, and Mission have since I seriously doubt he'd tolerate that tone with most others.

Save Dak'kon, FFG, and (possibly* Morte, all of the npcs in KOTOR except the smallblank robot have more personality and depth to them than the PST ones.