Interview Ken Rolston (Oblivion's lead designer) retirement interview

[Mefi]

*snip* cos it's long

Sure voiced dialogue can work well. But when the complaint over complex quests and dialogue/PC-NPC interaction is that it's just too costly then why go out and hire a couple of A list actors to do voiceovers? It's just trying to gild the turd.

Voiced dialogue is vastly more expensive to do (it still has to be written and then voice acted) which usually means you get a lot less dialogue than if the company had just gone for straight text.

To cut costs, Bethesda used the same lines by the same actors in the same voices, over and over and over again. For me, that breaks any extra immersion given by a spoken line. At least if it were text, I'd be 'hearing' the line said in a different way every time.

I also disagree with your views that complex dialogue is not vital to an RPG. Unless the only solution to every problem is to kill, then complexity and a number of options in dialogue are vital to a good RPG.

 

[Dhruin]

No full voiceovers - no commercially funded major development in the current market. End of story and pretty silly to think otherwise.

 

[Mefi]

No full voiceovers - no commercially funded major development in the current market. End of story and pretty silly to think otherwise.

Got any proof of that assertion? Or is it that the dearth of RPG titles from major developers has led to those still making 'RPGs' all now competing for the kiddy's kingdom market whilst being a little too scared to move in a different direction from the limited competition on offer?
It's not that voiceovers are required for funding per se, it's just that there are too few players in the market and they all want to play 'safe' by sticking to their focus groups of what will sell the most. From such origins, EA was born.

 

[Volourn]

"No full voiceovers - no commercially funded major development in the current market. End of story and pretty silly to think otherwise."

The existence of both DA, and NWN2 disproves your theory.

 

[Twinfalls]

"No full voiceovers - no commercially funded major development in the current market. End of story and pretty silly to think otherwise."

The existence of both DA, and NWN2 disproves your theory.

Not to mention current JRPGs, which are directly pitched at them kiddies. Played Dragon Quest 8? No full voice-overs there, not even a majority.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

TEXT UBER ALLES!

 

[bryce777]

Is he or is he not a jew? Why don't they ask the questions that matter?

 

[crufty]

It's all about teh cash for teh win!


Suppose you are desiging a game. Now suppose...


Situation A: more money for others means more money for you.

Your pitching a game. You know if your salary is 10% of a $1,000,000 game, publishers might balk. But if your salary is 1% of a $10,000,000 game, then its not such a big deal. So we have to spend that money, right? And no publisher wants to spend his dough on something he has to READ, god forbid. Its what he wants to see and hear during the 30 secs on his leer jet flying from bermuda. Lets see, spend $100,000k on 10 english majors writing intricate plot lines, or $5,000,00 on patrick stewart--which is going to impress the fellas at the Augusta National?

Ok, so that doesn't sounds so reasonable in retrospect.



Situation B: More money for others means more money for you

You've pitched your game. You've got your scratch. The publisher's voice/somebody who can fire you calls you into their office. "We need to have voice overs." You say--"HELL NO!" They say "look, here is a report we picked up from the gartner group/cnn/my bookie that says mainstream titles represent X% of the market. And mainstream titles have to have voice overs. And be beatable in less than 10 hours. If we do it, we're guaranteed X00,000 units. If we don't do it, we could be looking at X0,000. Your royalties are Y. What do you think?"


Do you--
A) Pick up the picture of your wife and kids and think "gosh that could just about pay for jrs books at college/his marine corp uniform, what do I care its just a game"

B) Toss the wife and kids in a box and go home.

C) Fight for a compromise--does it all have to be voice overs? Knowing full well this is politlcal capital best spent elsewhere...

What do you do?

 

[Keldryn]

Voiced dialogue is vastly more expensive to do (it still has to be written and then voice acted) which usually means you get a lot less dialogue than if the company had just gone for straight text.

Oh, definitely. However, if a game uses spoken dialogue, there should be less than if it were text because spoken dialogue is almost always a lot shorter than written dialogue. It still needs to be well-written, of course. And if it is well acted -- and if facial expressions are well animated -- it often doesn't need to be as long in order to convey the same message.

To cut costs, Bethesda used the same lines by the same actors in the same voices, over and over and over again. For me, that breaks any extra immersion given by a spoken line. At least if it were text, I'd be 'hearing' the line said in a different way every time.

Well, that's disappointing. I still haven't played Oblivion, and likely won't until I pick up an Xbox 360. They would have been better off not using that repetitive dialogue, which is how I feel about everybody saying the same things in Morrowind as well.

I also disagree with your views that complex dialogue is not vital to an RPG. Unless the only solution to every problem is to kill, then complexity and a number of options in dialogue are vital to a good RPG.

Oh, I wasn't trying to say that a number of dialogue options aren't vital to a good RPG. I was just expressing the view that you don't necessarily need volumes and volumes of dialogue to convincingly portray NPC interactions. Dialogue trees aren't the only way to do it either. I think Fallout hit a pretty good length in a lot of its dialogues. Ultima VII: Serpent Isle had me skimming and clicking through paragraphs of dialogue after a while, as those NPCs just went on and on and on... and every single one of them had a novel's worth of dialogue to read, it seemed. Ultima VII: The Black Gate did a better job with dialogues, in my opinion. Now I'm starting to sound like a Serpent Isle NPC... Anyway, I agree that good dialogue is vital to a good RPG, as well as plenty of (meaningful) options for the more important dialogues. But it's a seperate issue from voice-overs, and I think it is very possible to have dialogues just as well-written and effective done in voice-overs as in text.

 

[Keldryn]

Not to mention current JRPGs, which are directly pitched at them kiddies. Played Dragon Quest 8? No full voice-overs there, not even a majority.

Dragon Quest 8 is certainly not pitched at the kiddies. It's so old-school and traditional that it hurts. It's a 20 year-old game design in modern clothes. And it bores the hell out of me. I've played about 15 hours of it and I can't bring myself to pick it up again. It's the same game I've been playing for almost 20 years and I can't stand it anymore.

 

[Keldryn]

Maybe some places, but here in America (from all I can tell, their main market) the 14-18 year-olds are the ones with that much disposable income. Hell, my baby brother who's a Sophomore in high school has more consoles and a better computer than I do. Parents can't spend time with their kids so they try to make up for it by lavishing money on them...but that's a different thread, not trying to get (even more) off-topic here.

If their parents are buying them expensive game consoles, it isn't the 14-18 year-olds with the disposable income, it's the parents.

I think you're really over-generalizing about parents lavishing money on their kids because they can't spend time with that. That certainly happens, but I don't think that it makes up even a significant portion of the console gaming market. Most of the data and statistics available support the assertion that the 18-34 year-old males make up the largest segment of customers, I believe.

 

[glasnost]

TEXT UBER ALLES!

both now and ever and unto ages of ages!

 

[Dhruin]

"No full voiceovers - no commercially funded major development in the current market. End of story and pretty silly to think otherwise."

The existence of both DA, and NWN2 disproves your theory.

I don't think so. Obsidian hasn't implemented a "cinematic dialogue system" (their words, not mine) not to use it pretty regularly. I haven't kept track of this issue in NWN2 because I couldn't care less but I'd be surprised if the great majority of dialogue wasn't voiced. And yes, I know you'll argue that isn't the same as "full" voiceover - it's close enough. As for DA, noone knows anything about it. I'll bet anything it has full voiceover.

Not to mention current JRPGs, which are directly pitched at them kiddies. Played Dragon Quest 8? No full voice-overs there, not even a majority.

I don't know anything about JRPGs and I never include them when talking about RPGs. Didn't mention kiddies either.

Got any proof of that assertion? Or is it that the dearth of RPG titles from major developers has led to those still making 'RPGs' all now competing for the kiddy's kingdom market whilst being a little too scared to move in a different direction from the limited competition on offer?

It's not that voiceovers are required for funding per se, it's just that there are too few players in the market and they all want to play 'safe' by sticking to their focus groups of what will sell the most. From such origins, EA was born.

Did you just ask for for proof and then go on to argue why it happens?

 

[Volourn]

"I don't think so. Obsidian hasn't implemented a "cinematic dialogue system" (their words, not mine) not to use it pretty regularly. I haven't kept track of this issue in NWN2 because I couldn't care less but I'd be surprised if the great majority of dialogue wasn't voiced. And yes, I know you'll argue that isn't the same as "full" voiceover - it's close enough. As for DA, noone knows anything about it. I'll bet anything it has full voiceover."

1. NWN2 is not fully voiced. Period. This is undisputable.

2. IIRC, BIO has stated on the DA baords that the PC will *not* be fully voiced. Of course, that *might* change; but as of now you are wrong.

 

[RK47]

Arcanum had a lot of dialogue and although only 20% are spoken lines, they work great.

Oblivion is fully voiced but failed horribly at conveying any realism with clone voices and same line for every rumour.

 

[Slylandro]

I know some people who can't stand VO + text (as in KOTOR) whether it's good or not, because it supposedly forces them to read the text at the same pace.

Personally I think partial VO works wonders and is the most practical choice as of now. Reserving VO for important scenes gives them extra significance. It also means that the writers can usually feel free to edit at any time without worrying about having to do the VO all over again.

 

[Twinfalls]

I don't know anything about JRPGs and I never include them when talking about RPGs. Didn't mention kiddies either.

Here's what you said:

No full voiceovers - no commercially funded major development in the current market. End of story and pretty silly to think otherwise.

And you said this in a thread about Ken Rolston's comment that "Full voice-overs are what the kids want".

Whether you know nothing about jrpgs is irrelevant. That they are currently made without full voice-overs and are successful in the North American and European markets, is evidence to the contrary of what you asserted.

Or do you have any actual evidence (for your blanket statement above) which counters this?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

So, Ken "No Betrayal" Rolston was also a large contributer to PARANOIA? Ain't that something.

Yup, as such, he could completely destroy the CRPG genre AND the motherfucking ozone layer, and I'd still buy the guy a beer.

 

[Dhruin]

@Volourn, we'll see. I'll bet DA is fully voiced.

@Twinfalls, I was referring to cRPGs - nothing else. Apologies for being quite so sweeping.

As for evidence - sure, you've got me. Lots of upcoming cRPGs with dialogue too complex for full VO to work. Yup. Good times comin' for cRPG players.

 

[Twinfalls]

There aren't even 'lots of upcoming cRPGs' period, so there isn't really enough sample space.

Sadly, you're probably right though.

 

[Mefi]

Did you just ask for for proof and then go on to argue why it happens?

Yup cos I read your - as an =.

If you didn't mean that then I got my argument wrong. You're still wrong in your point (as Volly and Twinfalls said). If you did mean an = then you are very wrong. It's not the voiceover which makes the funding, it's the tiny group of companies all trying to match each other. Eventually the market fragments again. Or turns into a monopoly.

 

[crufty]

I think you're really over-generalizing about parents lavishing money on their kids because they can't spend time with that.

Maybe at 50 years of age, Ken considers kids to be 18-25 years old.

Also, the VO thing--the publishers no doubt see Madden, WWF franchises etc using it--and say hmm. Those players expect voices. If we don't have voices, will they buy our game? True children probably don't care--JRPGS, which are definitely aimed at 8 year olds. But the "uneducated and unwashed masses" of console gamers might...

I also did not know Ken worked on paranoia. All is forgiven. Come back to the fold, and give us niche gamers what we truly want--specs for a paranoia mod for Nethack.

 

[Data4]

Its designed for americans that on adverage at 25 years old have the metal age of a european 12 years old.

But only one third of the European pomp, arrogance, and pretentiousness. I'll take the immature American 25 year old anyway. I've got a 20 year old Swede at work that I'm just waiting to beat the shit out of with a tire iron, so...

-D4

 

[Old Scratch]

Did you see any of the stories about the kids who were so into the Harry Potter books, but then after they saw the movies they couldn't go back and read them any more? Something along the lines of "it wasn't what I imagined, but now it's all I can [imagine]." The human imagination can do things a lot better than any team of designers will ever be able to. That's not to say that VO can't be cool; but when it's a choice between doing a half-assed job at it or not doing it at all, I would much prefer they not do it at all. Bad VO kills immersion (not like Oblivion needed any help).

I understand what you're getting at, but I'm not sure it's relevant. Otherwise, text games would still be the best way to go. Sometimes I prefer not to do the bulk of the imagining, especially when the medium is so capable of providing visual and audio cues to fill in the blanks.

Voice over was handled rather poorly in Oblivion(like the inconsistency of some voices), but it was still preferable to just having to read the boring dialogue like in Morrowind. At least it gave some illusion of personality to the characters.

A great example of how voice over and other details like facial expressions can make a game and it's characters more memorable was VTM: Bloodlines. Even most of Bloolines mundane NPCs are forever burned into my memory, the same with other games like the talking heads in the Fallouts, characters in Gothic, KOTOR, and the spoken dialogues from characters in BG2. Voice over has been a good step in the advancement of CRPGs IMO.

I am not against voiced dialogue, either full or otherwise, in principle. But for an expansive, sand-box game with ~200 hours of play, and where the lacklustre dialogue of the last installment was a not uncommon criticism, it was IMHO completely the wrong decision. Absolutely disasterous in fact. I personally reckon that the quest simplicity, handholding and built in walkthough were an inevitable consequence of the decision to do full VO. And since they are my main problems with the game, that's makes that decision a rather important reasong as to why I was so disappointed. I don't think for a minute that given a different game, with a different scope and maybe a different dev team as well, that full VO wouldn't be the right decision.

Why would you assume that when those issues had been the same in Morrowind, a game that lacked much voice over at all? Voice over had nothing to do with the Oblivion team's lackluster writing and quest design. Had they not gone with any voice-over, or visual character emotions, the game would've still had the same problems. Most likely if they added anything in place of those two features, it would've just been more bland content in a game already bloated with bland content; additional quest-lines, a few extra graphical flourishes, an extra monster or two, another armor set, etc..

 

[ad hominem]

I understand what you're getting at, but I'm not sure it's relevant. Otherwise, text games would still be the best way to go. Sometimes I prefer not to do the bulk of the imagining, especially when the medium is so capable of providing visual and audio cues to fill in the blanks.

Voice over was handled rather poorly in Oblivion(like the inconsistency of some voices), but it was still preferable to just having to read the boring dialogue like in Morrowind. At least it gave some illusion of personality to the characters.

Okay, I agree with the first part, sometimes it's nice when the medium is capable of delivering; but in your second paragraph it sounds like you assume that it's not possible to write varied and realistic personalities. Morrowind's problem wasn't that the dialogue was written, it was that it was written poorly. It can be much cheaper to write good dialogue than it is to write reasonably sufficient dialogue and pay (hopefully) talented voice actors to give it personality in a recording studio. Regardless of how good your VA's talent is, if they're reading shitty scripts it will still sound stupid. Patrick Stewart is one of the better Shakespearean actors of our time, but he still sounds stupid in that game because he has nothing to work with.