Imagination in CRPGs

[Twinfalls]

What am I talking about? This, this and this for example. Disney, Disney, Disney.

 

[Atrokkus]

You've also got to consider the state of the industry in this whole discussion. Sure, in theory you can push the technology to the point of photorealistic simulation, but along with that, you have massive increases of labour requirements. A single game can be a multi-million dollar enterprise in development costs alone.

I concur with this. That's one of the reasons why solid RPGs are a dying breed now, though this rule certainly have several notable exceptions (Gothic, for instance).

Sagelike. ToEE looks pretty darn gorgeous graphics wise, it's certainly more than passable in todays market. I think it's missed opportunity. Obviously The Sims was a great deal more popular than ToEE, but the model it uses, of almost episodic content could surely work elsewhere, especially with RPGs.

Because it's TB, that's why. Nowadays, in game business, TB-RPGs, no matter how well-dones, are stil frowned upon. This is one of those deteriorating trends.
Heh, not that ToEE was a pure RPG, though...

If you have that much of an imagination, I don't understand why you can't apply it to Morrowind or any newer game as well. Your argument just doesn't make sense.

The problem is that the graphics are already there and you can't really imagine something on top of that. That is, even though they are quite simple, they still possess their own style (which I generally dislike) and this occupies your mind, leaving no ground for imagination. At least that's what it's doing for me. Moreover, as Bryce said, the game does have a solid setting-background, but lacks actual story, characters everything that makes an RPG an RPG.
[prays that this thread won't turn into another MOrr/Obl flaming pit]

A Disney fantasy-medieval world was what sprang to my mind when looking at the Oblivion screenshots. Clean, plastic, bland. Compared with the Gothic games, which look like a convincing European medieval setting.

This I agree completely with.

However,

Well, yeah, hell might still look lame through a soft focus lens AKA bloom.

If done right, Bloom is an essential tool in making a realistic-looking environment. How else can you show the sunshine? Oh and since you're talking about hell, then it could be used to show a lot of red glare.
If I'm not mistaken, Gothic uses Bloom as well. If not misused, bloom has a very realistic and *appropriate* effect.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Just out of curiosity, I would have thought that it would have been very easy to add a text mod to Morrowind. Was one ever made?

There have been some attempts, like a better NPC/dialog plugin, but they still did not do enough to make it worthwhile, methinks. You can alwasys ask Balor for details, he's our mod-master 'round here.

What am I talking about? This, this and this for example. Disney, Disney, Disney.

The second one sure looks like photosheep. PS or not, it's pretty lame, yeah. That's what Im talking about: wrong implementation of a potent technology.

 

[Turdis]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with bloom by itself, but alot of developers seem to overuse it. I think its that combined with the pudgy look npcs tend to have in Oblivion that makes everything look soft and harmless.

The problem is that the graphics are already there and you can't really imagine something on top of that.

I have to disagree with that. The thing is, text doesnt have to be a straight up description, it can serve to set a tone. I mean, when you let the graphics do all the talking for you, you basically leave everything up to the imagination of the reader. This brings the experience a bit closer to that of a film. The problem with this is that some particular abstract image or concept you want to get across about whatever game enviorment the player is in would be lost. For example, suppose a game takes you to downtown Tokyo, that'd be fairly easy to represent. Now accompany that same image with some text along the lines of "As you step into the street your eyes are drawn inexorably to the neon signs crowding the skies, inscrutable sigils blazing with cold light".

I'm no writer, but I do read alot, and even when describing similar things, writing style and word choice end up having a tremendous effect on the imagination, regardless of whether or not the item described is commonplace.

 

[Proweler]

What am I talking about? This, this and this for example. Disney, Disney, Disney.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx23B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx19B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx17B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx15B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx11B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx09B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx04B.jpg

Looks good enhough to me. Can't argue about taste but it's defenitly looming.

 

[bryce777]

Actually, I really like the shattered city ones.

 

[Drakron]

Looks good enhough to me. Can't argue about taste but it's defenitly looming.

You are a dumbass, the pictures you liked are Bethsoft taken pictures and that means they are taken with the express purpose of looking good, chance its actually looks like that even on a Xbox 360 are slim.

Twinfalls pictures on the other hand are the ILLEGAL RUSSIAN PICTURES that is likely what players end up looking at when playing the game, not the Bethsoft "good thing this are pictures and nobody notices its running at 10 FPS" pictures that may even be rendered screenshoots.

 

[Proweler]

Point was the lack of dark atmosphere. Not the fucking looks.

 

[Twinfalls]

No, Proweler, the point was a lack of realism - Oblivion's towns and interior environments don't look convincingly medieval, unlike Gothic's. They also tend towards the plasticky and Disney-esque.

You can link to dark pictures, but that don't prove anything in terms of the above point. After all, Disney also has the GHOST TRAIN - OOGEDA-BOOGEDA!!

 

[Proweler]

Your initial statement was about the world in general. Which as the screens show can be pretty dark and looming. When you say those Russian screens look like crap you are stating the obvious. Pity you don't notice it's a beta with all graphical options off.

When looking at the gothic 3 screens they show a somewhat romantic image of what could be Eastern Europe. They are obviously aiming for the Dracula effect but over did it. It's hardly any closer to reality then Oblivion.

Dunno what place you are from but when the summer sun shines, over here things do look rather bright.

 

[Twinfalls]

Can you read? Here is my initial statement:

A Disney fantasy-medieval world was what sprang to my mind when looking at the Oblivion screenshots. Clean, plastic, bland. Compared with the Gothic games, which look like a convincing European medieval setting.

Where did I say "the screens are always bright", or "there's no night-time or dark 'scary' bits"?

And it wasn't me who said the Russian screens look like crap.

 

[Proweler]

Can you read? Here is my initial statement:

A Disney fantasy-medieval world was what sprang to my mind when looking at the Oblivion screenshots. Clean, plastic, bland. Compared with the Gothic games, which look like a convincing European medieval setting.

No, Proweler, the point was a lack of realism - Oblivion's towns and interior environments don't look convincingly medieval, unlike Gothic's. They also tend towards the plasticky and Disney-esque.

So what’s it going to be? "A Disney fantasy-medieval world" or "Oblivion's towns and interior environments not being convincingly medieval, unlike Gothic's." The screens show you wrong on the former and in my opinion gothic doesn't look convincingly medieval to me.

Where did I say "the screens are always bright", or "there's no night-time or dark 'scary' bits"?

And it wasn't me who said the Russian screens look like crap.

They also tend towards the plasticky and Disney-esque.[after showing some (or a) russian screens]

Unless you like that that of course. Can't argue over taste.

 

[Section8]

I don't think there's anything wrong with clean and bland for certain portions of a fantasy world. Those faggy paladins have to have something symbolic of purity to defend, right?

But plastic? It seems to be all too common today due the industry's obsession with exagerrated specular and bump mapping. maybe when they get over showing off technical features, it can take a back seat to subtle use, like Half-Life 2, for instance.

 

[Micmu]

You know this is going to be a first JRPG for xboy360. NPCs are looking as scarry as anime.

 

[Twinfalls]

@Proweler

Look you stupid dipshit - stop being a blatant argumentative retard. First you bring up photos of night-time shots to counter my statement the game looks plasticky and Disneyesque, when brightness has nothing to do with it. Now you're trying to split hairs on 'setting'. The screenshots do not show me 'wrong on the former', Disneyworld has night-time and can be 'woo scary' in a plastic way, too. Gothic's environments are more authentically medieval looking, if you don't agree, it's probably because you're stupid.

You don't even make sense with half of what you're posting up. What the fuck does

They also tend towards the plasticky and Disney-esque.

Unless you like that that of course. Can't argue over taste.

mean?

 

[Proweler]

I don't think there's anything wrong with clean and bland for certain portions of a fantasy world. Those faggy paladins have to have something symbolic of purity to defend, right?

But plastic? It seems to be all too common today due the industry's obsession with exagerrated specular and bump mapping. maybe when they get over showing off technical features, it can take a back seat to subtle use, like Half-Life 2, for instance.

 

[LlamaGod]

Oblivion doesn't look medieval because instead of sticking with a design idea, Bethesda did what they did in Morrowind where they take a bunch of design styles and assjam them into each other and make this crappy mixture of designs.

With armors, too.

It's not convincing and looks incredibly bland and silly.

 

[Proweler]

@Proweler

Look you stupid dipshit - stop being a blatant argumentative retard. First you bring up photos of night-time shots to counter my statement the game looks plasticky and Disneyesque, when brightness has nothing to do with it. Now you're trying to split hairs on 'setting'. The screenshots do not show me 'wrong on the former', Disneyworld has night-time and can be 'woo scary' in a plastic way, too. Gothic's environments are more authentically medieval looking, if you don't agree, it's probably because you're stupid.

You don't even make sense with half of what you're posting up. What the fuck does

They also tend towards the plasticky and Disney-esque.

Unless you like that that of course. Can't argue over taste.

mean?

You typed all that stuff up just because I don't think it looks plastic, isn't bright all the time and not medieval like gothic? It’s true what they say about you, you really are taking yourselves to serious.

 

[Twinfalls]

Right, ok, so I'm a plural now. Thanks for diagnosing my multiple personality disorder.

I typed that up because you're a dumbfuck. No other reason.

 

[Proweler]

 

[Twinfalls]

:shock: :D

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

uhhh it IS bland and plastic

 

[Jon]

I was wondering just how important the ability to visualize and to imagine things is when playing a CRPG. Just yesterday I gave the good, old Daggerfall another go. Running through the damp dungeons I was almost aware about how it must have smelled there. Suddenly, a terrible screeching was to be heard! I sat bolt upright, knowing that a skeleton must be close. When I finally saw it, I could actually hear it chuckling --- I even saw it in my head, waving its rusty saber at me.
The day before that, I spent some time with Pool of Radiance, a rather ancient Goldbox game. Although the town of Phlan that my party was about to liberate was not very detailed, I still could imagine how my characters roamed through the city and bartered with the merchants.

Well, the point is: Today, I thought I would give Morrowind another shot, even against better judgement. Well, when I saw the world and explored my first dungeon I uninstalled that junk again. Why? Well, aside of the usual, well discussed cons of Morrowind, it also did not feel as real as Daggerfall or Pool of Radiance. In those games, I was really immersed into the world surrounding me. I knew what my character(s) were thinking. Now one might say: Is a modern game not much more immersive, due to its fancy music and amazing graphics? Well, my answer has to be: no! If everything is served on a platter, one is restricted in one's imagination. Morrowind... Everything was so clean; every face was free from dirt. Magic items glowed like some kind of plastic toy. How could that have been immersive?

I agree that the 'better' graphics in Morrowind could be less immersive than those in Daggerfall. Being too 'clean' is, I think a problem in all just about all recent games. The grainy images in Daggerfall managed to disguise this allowing the player to fill in what is missing.

Daggerfalls dungeons also featured all manner of disfigured corpses, blood stained torture equiptment etc. I wonder how easy it would be to get a higher fidelity representation of these things past censors?

Another thing about old games vs new is the lack of difficulty in recent games. It is hard for something to seem 'epic' (as rpg's are often billed) if it offers no challenge. It was genuinely possible to get lost in Daggerfalls dungeons, this for me made them seem all the more real. Morrowinds tiny caverns offer no sense of foreboding. Any aspect of the game not involving clubbing something to death is usually trivial (why is it never hard to work out the correct response in dialogue?).