Decline If I never played Thief before will I enjoy them today?

[POOPERSCOOPER]

If I never played Thief before will I enjoy them today? I don't even know how someone would answer that.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Thief: The Dark Project and Thief II: The Metal Age are among the best games ever created, and you should absolutely enjoy them if played in current year. Also, the third game is still good, though lacking the truly great level design of its predecessors, and provides a nice conclusion to the story of Garrett the Master Thief.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

is the GoG or Steam versions better?

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

is the GoG or Steam versions better?

IIRC the gog ones have the QOL mods preapplied as always. Multiple resolutions etc.

 

[Lyric Suite]

If I never played Thief before will I enjoy them today? I don't even know how someone would answer that.

They are one of the few 10/10 games as far as i'm concerned. Perfect in almost every way. Even the visuals hold up despite some truly crappy character models due to the strong atmosphere and art direction.

As a veteran i'd probably would have liked a slightly harder AI but can't complain it still has some of the best AI ever put in a game and they had to make the game commercially viable somehow (and it was berely that on release).

Doesn't matter which version you get, Tfix and T2Fix for the second game work on GoG and Steam alike and once you apply those it makes no difference.

 

[NecroLord]

If I never played Thief before will I enjoy them today? I don't even know how someone would answer that.

It also depends on your game preferences and gameplay style.
The Thief trilogy of games are not your run and gun kind of games. In Thief, you've gotta keep it slow and quiet, learn the patrol routes of the guards and other enemies, use the lack of lighting and the shadows to your advantage. You can't really go toe to toe with some of the enemies (you can, sure, but you cannot take too much punishment), some of which will absolutely destroy you in melee (the Hammer Haunts and Rat Beasts).
Play Thief 1 and 2, see their greatness and see for yourself how far modern gaming has fallen.
Also give Deadly Shadows a go, for sure.

 

[JarlFrank]

is the GoG or Steam versions better?

IIRC the gog ones have the QOL mods preapplied as always. Multiple resolutions etc.

Which is why Steam version is better: the standard version of TFix has some "fixes" that actually change how some parts of the game work, like removing the ability to climb on certain objects because the modder behind TFix thinks "It was an oversight to allow the player to mantle up an opened door, so I removed the physics for standing on that object".

This ruins some fan missions where the authors, using the original physics of the game, do indeed intend for the player to climb up certain objects.
It also makes it impossible to climb out of bounds in some original missions, which sounds like a fix at first glance, but then you remember that Thief is an immersive sim where experimenting with the environment and discovering paths the developers didn't intend is the entire point of the game.
The guy even went as far as putting invisible walls in some places in the original missions, to "fix" the player being able to climb over walls "that weren't intended to be climbed over" by crate stacking or other (intended!) engine tricks.

TFix is shit, manually install NewDark instead.

 

[Dave the Druid]

is the GoG or Steam versions better?

IIRC the gog ones have the QOL mods preapplied as always. Multiple resolutions etc.

Which is why Steam version is better: the standard version of TFix has some "fixes" that actually change how some parts of the game work, like removing the ability to climb on certain objects because the modder behind TFix thinks "It was an oversight to allow the player to mantle up an opened door, so I removed the physics for standing on that object".

This ruins some fan missions where the authors, using the original physics of the game, do indeed intend for the player to climb up certain objects.
It also makes it impossible to climb out of bounds in some original missions, which sounds like a fix at first glance, but then you remember that Thief is an immersive sim where experimenting with the environment and discovering paths the developers didn't intend is the entire point of the game.
The guy even went as far as putting invisible walls in some places in the original missions, to "fix" the player being able to climb over walls "that weren't intended to be climbed over" by crate stacking or other (intended!) engine tricks.

TFix is shit, manually install NewDark instead.

Ooh. Is this the TFix hate thread now? Cause I can add to this. TFix fucks up The Dark Project/Gold in a bunch of other ways as well. It takes a bunch of assets from Thief 2 and imports them into Thief 1 but the result is a fucking mess. First up he replaced a ton of textures with higher resolution T2 textures. Now on paper that doesn't sound too bad but Thief 2 had support for colored lighting, Thief 1 didn't and its textures were designed around that. As a result the new textures look really bland color-wise and the artstyle in general suffers.

The bigger problem is that he took the human guard AI from Thief 2 and shoved into Thief 1. Looking Glass tweaked the AI quite a bit between games but the results are a mixed bag. I've always found Thief 2's AI can be a bit more inconsistent and dumb at times. On the other hand Thief 2 often has bigger levels with wide-open spaces so having the AI not be so jumpy can be a bit of a blessing in disguise. It doesn't work when you put that AI into Thief 1 where you're far more often stuck in tight labyrinthine corridors within spitting distance of the nearest guard. Putting Thief 2's AI into the first game makes the AI seem shittier than it actually was on release.

Don't use TFix, but especially don't use it on the first game. He fucked it up.

 

[JarlFrank]

FYI the version for Thief 2 was not made by the same guy, and is a pretty pure NewDark installer with some optional features you can skip.

 

[Lyric Suite]

A lot of that stuff was always optional to me:

They also have a lite version of TFix but apparently that isn't supported anymore. I guess the regular version with all those options unchecked is the lite version now.

I always just unchecked all those options. Never knew there were other things it did under the hood.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So apparently TFix Lite has none of those changes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Thief/comments/cxzs2m/question_about_installing_thief_with_tfix/

I was also under the impression the GoG version comes with just NewDark, not TFix. Haven't reinstalled Thief in years as it is a permanent fixture of my system so i don't know if they updated their version on GoG.

 

[JarlFrank]

I always just unchecked all those options. Never knew there were other things it did under the hood.

Yeah because it's hidden in patch notes rather than openly communicated to the user. Because the guy behind TFix claims those are "common sense fixes" that everyone will appreciate! Even though it literally makes some fan missions unplayable, because their authors designed them with the original object physics in mind.

Timestamped a bit in Rose Garden by Melan from a Let's Play by FenPhoenix, where he repeatedly fails to make a certain jump because the changes of TFix prevent him from mantling up a transistor.


In vanilla Thief Gold, you can mantle up this object.
Melan designed this area with that in mind.
But the TFix guy thought "It's silly that you can mantle up this object, it was probably not intended to be mantleable by the devs. So I changed it!"
And by doing that, he broke this section of Rose Garden.

Players who encounter this issue have no idea what's going on and blame the FM author, because TFix doesn't tell you about these changes.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Are there FM maps that actually factor in those changes? Because that would be extremely, EXTREMELY fucking obnoxious (it already pisses me off that i have to keep different source ports and different versions of GZDoom for various wads).

I checked and it seems back when i installed Thief last time (around five years ago or something, maybe more i can't remember), i was smart enough to use the lite version, though for all i know that's compromised too. I haven't formatted my PC since so it's been sitting like that this whole time.

 

[JarlFrank]

Are there FM maps that actually factor in those changes? Because that would be extremely, EXTREMELY fucking obnoxious (it already pisses me off that i have to keep different source ports and different versions of GZDoom for various wads).

No, the author community does not embrace the changes made by TFix. Everyone just assumes things work as they should. It actually came as a bit of a surprise when we found out about these changes and how they can affect FMs without anyone knowing about it.

Ever since we found out, "Don't use TFix if you want to play Thief Gold FMs" has become standard advice.

 

[Spukrian]

I was wondering why I couldn't get up on the roof of Bafford's Manor in my most recent Thief replay, good to know that TFix is the culprit. I'll restore from backups next time I have an itch to play.

 

[Dave the Druid]

A lot of that stuff was always optional to me:

They also have a lite version of TFix but apparently that isn't supported anymore. I guess the regular version with all those options unchecked is the lite version now.

I always just unchecked all those options. Never knew there were other things it did under the hood.

BZZZZZZZZZZZTTTT. WRONG. Well, slightly wrong. Even if you uncheck everything TFix will still replace a shit-ton of textures with Thief 2 assets and import in Thief 2's AI for the human enemies. TFix Lite doesn't do that. (Although last time I installed either was a few years ago so it might've changed since.)

And yes, tons of people on TTLG have argued back and forth with the TFix guy for years now. His response is usually just something along the lines of, "Why don't you just build your own retro PC if you want to play Thief? Clearly my new version's superior." Although luckily people calling him an utter dipshit did cause him to unwillingly make TFix Lite in the end.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I bought the whole Thief bundle for like $5 based on the resounding Yes signals I got in this thread. Would probably only play 1 and 2 though.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

JarlFrank So what should I use if I want to replay the first two Thief games in the most pure, vanilla way on a modern pc? The steam version does not have Tfix preapplied while the GoG version does?

EDIT: Guys I did some digging and in my opinion the GOG Installer still comes with Tfix Lite only, not the full Tfix.
There was a moment a few years ago where GOG accidently included the full Tfix in a release, but it was rolled back quickly:
https://af.gog.com/forum/thief_series/thief_1_2_have_been_updatedagain_p/page1?as=1649904300

I installed Thief Gold using the latest GOG installer and checked how the guards look in the first mission. They have the original "lo-res grim look" preserved in Tfix Lite instead of the "high-res nice look" that comes with the full Tfix.
So I think (hope) all is good. By the way, according to the changelook the last update to the GoG Installer was a few years ago, it is still on NewDark 1.26 and Tfix Lite 1.26 instead of 1.27.

 

[Gargaune]

Which is why Steam version is better: the standard version of TFix has some "fixes" that actually change how some parts of the game work, like removing the ability to climb on certain objects because the modder behind TFix thinks "It was an oversight to allow the player to mantle up an opened door, so I removed the physics for standing on that object".

Wait, are you sure about this? I've got the GOG versions installed and just tried mantling an open door to check:

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Which is why Steam version is better: the standard version of TFix has some "fixes" that actually change how some parts of the game work, like removing the ability to climb on certain objects because the modder behind TFix thinks "It was an oversight to allow the player to mantle up an opened door, so I removed the physics for standing on that object".

Wait, are you sure about this? I've got the GOG versions installed and just tried mantling an open door to check:

See my above post. The GOG Versions come with Tfix Lite only. The author Vodoo47 himself confirmed this just a few hours ago on the gog forums:
https://af.gog.com/forum/thief_series/does_the_gog_version_of_thief_gold_use_tfix_lite?as=1649904300

GoG Installers should be fine.

 

[Gargaune]

See my above post. The GOG Versions come with Tfix Lite only. The author Vodoo47 himself confirmed this just a few hours ago on the gog forums:
https://af.gog.com/forum/thief_series/does_the_gog_version_of_thief_gold_use_tfix_lite?as=1649904300

GoG Installers should be fine.

Cheers, posted before you got your edit in and didn't see it.

 

[Ivan]

If I never played Thief before will I enjoy them today? I don't even know how someone would answer that.

hell yeah! just don't make the mistake I did. don't go ill prepared into the bonehoard

 

[baba is you]

Few games excel at exploration like the Thief series.

The level design is very good, and the sound design is also very good for a game of its time. It's one of those games that was ahead of its time.

 

[what am i doing]

If I never played Thief before will I enjoy them today? I don't even know how someone would answer that.

Depends. There are a couple things to keep in mind:
1, the games are old, so the graphics are very low-poly and textures are low-resolution.
2, Thief 1 in particular has some awkward control mechanisms; for example, if I recall correctly there is no discrete "sprint" modifier, only a "sprint plus move forward" control. For a stealth game, that's not often going to be a problem, but still, it is an example of how the controls in Thief 1 were kind of janky. Fixed in Thief 2, where the controls are generally pretty good, though mantling is still a bit iffy.
3, When you hear the premise for the Thief games you probably imagine breaking into mansions and banks and such; many people expect that, play Thief 1, and are disappointed, because Thief 1 is actually more of a tomb-raiding game full of supernatural creatures, with a couple mansion levels. Thief 2 on the other hand is about breaking into mansions and banks and such, with mostly human enemies, so if that's what you want out of the series, consider playing Thief 2 first, then Thief 1 after. Thief 2 will spoil portions of 1's story, but it's better than getting turned off from the series due to one of the games being different than expected.

Other than that there's really no reason why you wouldn't enjoy them. The level design is great, art direction is excellent, they had a great cast of talented voice actors (Stephen Russell actually voice acted something like half the characters in the game, man has incredible range), and while the graphics are rudimentary, the sound technology is better than you'll find in modern games. I'm of the opinion that Thief 2 is an actual 10/10 game, a masterpiece that will never be equalled, let alone surpassed.

 

[udm]

Yes you'll definitely be falling off ledges quite a bit, especially on moving ones (e.g., Mage Tower) and irregularly shaped ones (e.g., The Sword), so it's advisable to save often. It's a shame because it's this area that really holds Thief 1 and 2 back from being the GOAT.