Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

[Saark]

But, like you said yourself - Riyad Masters is the new TI with an insane prize pool, so I don't really see the different.

It's not as big as TI (yet). It had $15mil prizepool last year, but they're spreading things around to a lot more esports this time around, so the Dota2 prizepool is currently set at $5mil (this might change, but it's the most recent info). More importantly, the spread of the prizepool is a lot saner (33% for #1 instead of the insane 45% that TI had. Everybody gets a bigger cut except the #1 team). The majors leading up to Riyadh are also a lot better and spread the money around more.

Some orgs also genuinely have to consider whether it's worth participating due to it being a Saudi Arabian hosted tournament with strong political ties, which flies in the face of many orgs DEI and LGBTQ+ sponsorships. As far as Valve is concerned, it means they don't have to foot the bill for the biggest DotA tournament of the year anymore. Worst case, nothing changes other than Valve saving some money, but the changes to player contracts isn't gonna get reverted now that players have recognized how much better the current situation is.

Keep in mind that for the largest part of esports being a thing, most orgs had incredibly predatory contracts and practices because the people they were signing on were 16-22y olds who oftentimes didn't even consult a lawyer before signing into a contract that could potentially cost them millions. There was a lot of abuse and exploitation going on behind the scenes. The shift towards treating it like a proper employment and business is a fairly new development, and many esports orgs and player careers had to die for it to happen because the old way of doing this just wasn't sustainable.

Don't get me wrong, it's still bad, and having the dota2 esports circuit be this heavily dominated by the oilers is not good long-term either. But it's better than it used to be.

 

[Chuck Norris]

I have lost my access to League of Legends recently because of the shitty anti-cheat they added and I have tried playing Dota 2.

I don't know what it is, but man, this game feels terrible to play compared to League. I know the popular opinion is that League is a children's game compared to Dota 2, but it has the same level of depth, but channeled in a different, more exciting direction, which is mechanics based game-play. With League, you can do certain flashy plays that just makes jaws drop. Millisecond reactions can turn the tide of the battle.

Also the presentation (graphics, music, champion design, general "Game Feel") is much lamer than League.

League is like boxing, but Dota 2 is like playing chess with old people in the park.

P.S: I know I'm gonna get spammed with "retarded" and "WTF am I reading" ratings, but I had to say it. Dota 2 gets a lot of leeway because of being a pioneer of the genre and League was the new kid on the block, but you have to admit they have vastly improved the formula.

 

[Saark]

vastly improved the formula.

They "improved" the formula as much as a cook improves a recipe by taking out all the spice and flavor. League has a higher mechanical skill requirement, while DotA is a lot more complex on a strategic level. So basically, if you have bad reflexes or simply aren't the most mechanically skilled player, you won't succeed in league, and if you don't have a working brain, you can't succeed in DotA. Riot is also spending way too much money on marketing, K-Pop songs and Anime, instead of actually improving their game, i.e. making a client that isn't complete dogshit.

They did a better job at making a proper AutoChess clone though.

 

[luj1]

With League, you can do certain flashy plays that just makes jaws drop. Millisecond reactions can turn the tide of the battle.

And in Dota as well

LoL is five times slower, it's like watching a slide show. Not to mention it looks like a Java game from Facebook

 

[luj1]

Equating Dota with strategy and LoL with micro is super dumb btw

 

[Beans00]

Equating Dota with strategy and LoL with micro is super dumb btw

Hey bro I haven't played Dota in like 10 years but if you want I'll hop on and carry you as either silencer or queen of pain.

 

[Saark]

Equating Dota with strategy and LoL with micro is super dumb btw

So is not having proper reading comprehension. I didn't say micro, did I? I said LoL is more demanding mechanically, because it is. Almost all the abilities are skillshots, disables last a lot shorter, and the game is way burstier than DotA, making it much more difficult to both land hits and avoid getting blown up if you misposition even slightly against someone who knows what they're doing. Beyond every hero's kit, LoL has a lot less depth relative to Dota, making it almost entirely about your ability to last hit flawlessly, hit your skills and dodge/move out of position. The only non-mechanical skillsets you need as a LoL player are keeping track of item/buff timings and enemy cooldowns, map awareness and communication. You can lack all 3 of those and still make it very far in the ladder if you're simply very good at playing your hero. There's a reason LoL is a lot easier to one-trick a single hero in, after all.

Dota on the other hand has plenty of target-locked skills which makes playing many heroes a lot more forgiving. Obviously DotA has more micro due to having couriers, controllable units like neutral or summons etc. Not to mention many more active items, neutral items, a bigger map with more objectives and many more layers of depth that are either simplified or completely absent in LoL. Consequently, Dota is a lot more about strategy while LoL is almost entirely mechanical (read: hand-eye coordination and reflexes). You just need to compare the laning stage in both games to grasp the difference. LoL is pretty much entirely just last-hitting, poking the enemy whenever possible and shoving waves when the enemy teleports, making it almsot exclusively about clicking at the right point at the right time (read: mechanical skill), whereas Dota has creep pulling, managing lane creep equilibrium, lotus pools, twin gates etc. all to keep track off and play to your advantage.

 

[janior]

why dota is more popular in 3rd world countries?

 

[luj1]

Equating Dota with strategy and LoL with micro is super dumb btw

Hey bro I haven't played Dota in like 10 years but if you want I'll hop on and carry you as either silencer or queen of pain.

But we have to play DotA on Garena

 

[InspectorRumpole]

Not even taking that LoL bait. Decent enough try though

 

[hajro]

I have lost my access to League of Legends recently because of the shitty anti-cheat they added and I have tried playing Dota 2.

I don't know what it is, but man, this game feels terrible to play compared to League. I know the popular opinion is that League is a children's game compared to Dota 2, but it has the same level of depth, but channeled in a different, more exciting direction, which is mechanics based game-play. With League, you can do certain flashy plays that just makes jaws drop. Millisecond reactions can turn the tide of the battle.

Also the presentation (graphics, music, champion design, general "Game Feel") is much lamer than League.

League is like boxing, but Dota 2 is like playing chess with old people in the park.

P.S: I know I'm gonna get spammed with "retarded" and "WTF am I reading" ratings, but I had to say it. Dota 2 gets a lot of leeway because of being a pioneer of the genre and League was the new kid on the block, but you have to admit they have vastly improved the formula.

Your mother will die in her sleep tonight unless you reply to this message with : OY BLYAT

 

[Beans00]

I haven't played any mobas in a long time but I was pretty high ranked on league(plat season 1, low diamond season 2 and 3). I don't think DOTA 2 had ranked when I played but I was pretty good at it. My MMR on HON(a dota knockoff) was around 1800.

In terms of actual speed of the game DOTA 2 is the slowest of them. The reason for this(I have no idea if they changed this or not I last played in 2014/15) was turn speed was purposely nerfed. I have no idea if it was like this in DOTA 1, I only played normal wc3 I didn't give a fuck about custom maps.

Turn speed is how slow your characters turn around. It makes dota feel like you're playing in mud.

League doesn't have the turn speed problem but it's also a baby game. You don't lose gold when you die, and every 3 weeks they release a broken champ that takes a few months to get nerfed. I played it because I had friends who played it and my girlfriend(now wife) was into it. I played jax and kayle every game and literally went like 18-2 every time. Jax was broken as fuck lol, no idea if he still is.

Hon was the ultimate moba. It was like dota but not for pussies. No turn speed, every character would move instantly. The map was big like dota and most heroes were dota knockoffs. It's hard to explain but people play league and dota with a bitch mentality. It was normal to see 70-60 kill hon games on each side. You got to lane and you started fighting. I think having less jungles helped with this, suicide lane was usually a 2v2(unless hag aka queen of pain or something with good escape wanted to solo) until you got into the pro elo with mega nerds.

The reason Hon is dead is because the company was retarded. DOTA/LEAGUE were f2p on day 1. Hon was subscription, then b2p, then free, then no one cared and it was a corpse by like 2015.



Game also had an epic ost, way better than league or dota.

 

[luj1]

HoN was awesome

 

[hajro]

HoN died because people realized you can just play perma ganker cause no turn rate and the game just devolved into a slugfest. Who cares if there are 70kills when the game feels like a deathmatch with 0 strategy. Its basically what the turbo mode in dota2 is nowadays except they started designing new heroes around it making it even more cancerous.

 

[ColonelMace]

The League/Dota talk is pointless since the crushing majority of moba enthusiasts are unable to even understand the former is a versus fighting game and the latter a strategy one.

So you suffer through the most inane observations like "you know, League is actually more demanding on a mechanical level hmmmm" or "I can't really understand the appeal of a child's game featuring a tiny map and a disastrous lack of synergy between the characters, turning the drafting phase into a simple character selection screen" like any of these points bear any importance and you start to ponder whether these people actually belong to the same species as you.

You want a reflex-based fighting game where no-matching your opponent depends mostly on whether you're more capable with your dude that he is with his ? Play League.
You want a complex strategy game where no-matching your opponent depends mostly on whether you outsmarted him (sometimes, often even, by accident due to the game's depth) ? play Dota.
To claim one is better than the other, considering how they're almost perfectly opposed, design-wise, on certain aspects makes no fucking sense.

 

[Chuck Norris]

I understand the points made in this thread and I agree that Dota is more strategic and maybe on a fundamental level, a better game.

But I guess my main complaint boils down to the fact that with Dota 2, you can never reach the highs you can reach with League.

Also the fact that Dota 2 is more strategic is not necessarily an advantage. Moba as a genre is a dumbed down version of RTS games, because you control 1 character. And all the other genres in which you control 1 character (like fighting and FPS) are highly mechanical. So the mechanical nature of League is more in tune with the nature of the genre itself. Dota 2 is stuck in a limbo in that regard. It is strategic, but it can never be as strategic as an RTS. So what's the big deal? At least League takes MOBA to its logical conclusion.

 

[ColonelMace]

it can never be as strategic as an RTS.

My brother in Christ, if you think League can be as mechanically endearing as an actual versus fighting game (the genre it actually belongs to), you should get invested in one asap. Might find your 'logical conclusion' there.
Might even drop mobas altogether when you realise how inferior they are, from a pure design perspective, to any actually regalian genre they naturally end up mocking.
They're fun to play with friends, is all. That's their only selling factor. They're not worth analysing or comparing and whatnot. Nobody cares about mobas. Nobody wonders how to push "the genre" forward because it's not a genre to begin with.
It's a 2010's trend which takes a lot of time to die because of how addictive and time-consuming they are. A combination which already keeps the mmo genre alive somehow.

 

[InspectorRumpole]

There's actually an upcoming moba coming out. Don't remember the name, but I thought they were "passé"

 

[hajro]

passe deez nuts.

The league highs of removing muramana toggle because room temp IQ playerbase didnt realize item had one.

 

[pakoito]

There's actually an upcoming moba coming out. Don't remember the name, but I thought they were "passé"

Smite 2 lol

 

[Saark]

So you suffer through the most inane observations like "you know, League is actually more demanding on a mechanical level hmmmm"

You want a reflex-based fighting game where no-matching your opponent depends mostly on whether you're more capable with your dude that he is with his ? Play League.

You do realize you just made the same observation, right?

Hon was the ultimate moba. It was like dota but not for pussies. No turn speed, every character would move instantly.

Technically true, but still incorrect. Except for Monkey King, which had a turn-rate of 0.03, every hero had turn-speed. They just dialed it down a bit, with the slowest hero being at 0.5, and the vast majority being at 0.3-0.4. DotA2 is has theirs at 0.6-0.9. LoL of course has 0 turn rate for all champs, as far as I remember. It was definitely a much faster game, as both the turn-rates of heroes as well as their cast and attack points were lower than Dota's.

Personally, I agree that HoN was more enjoyable during its formative years. It wasn't until their cancer cash-shop became the go-to for their new heroes and annoying as fuck announcers and voice lines, that the game took a heavy nosedive. The biggest issue though, was the era when they started releasing too many self-synergizing phys-scaling strength heroes, in combination with adding Sol's Bulwark to the game. The entire game was dominated by Deadwoods, Rally's, Pandas, Monkey Kings and a bunch of other phys-scaling cores that required no supports or setups by other characters to one-shot pretty much anybody they set their eyes on. Portal Key, Sols Bulwark, and you took down pretty much any hero solo, by mid-game.

The HoN int/agi hero design was much better by comparison, and I genuinely wish Valve would've bought the rights to the HoN hero designs and brought in like 40+ of their heroes. Heroes like Myrmidon, Chipper, Puppet Master, Empath, Parasite, Master of Arms, Silhouette etc. were all incredible, and would fit perfectly into DotA.

 

[ColonelMace]

You do realize you just made the same observation, right?

My point, albeit quite subtile in essence, was that arguing one is better than the other because of aforementioned specificities makes no sense.
I never denied that said specificities were factual.

Like I can hear that Street Fighter is top notch in terms of animations.
I can hear that Elden Ring is top notch in terms of build variety.
I can't fathom retards who will claim the former is a better game than the latter because muh animations, of that the latter is a better game than the former because muh build variety or whatever else.
Most Moba enthusiasts obliviously do this all the time.
And I'm somehow not all that surprised you didn't get my point (quite subtile etc).

 

[luj1]

like I can hear that Street Fighter is top notch in terms of animations.
I can hear that Elden Ring is top notch in terms of build variety.

lol

 

[Saark]

My point, albeit quite subtile in essence, was that arguing one is better than the other because of aforementioned specificities makes no sense.

Well yeah, no one did that either, other than the LoL retard I suppose. I personally wish DotA was a little less strategic at times, and a litlte more about mechanical skill, especially when it comes to skillshots. Never was a big fan of targeted spells, particularly disables, as it makes a lot of heroes fairly simple to play. I suppose Linkens and Lotus would be kind of useless if that came to be, but I wouldn't even mind that.

Having to remember all the catapult wave-timings, rosh timings, ult timings, bkb timings etc. on top of trying to predict enemy movement patterns with Twin Gate now being a thing as well, is just a major pain in the ass. As a support player, I spend half the time looking at the clock in the first 10 minutes of the game, from creep stacking/pulling, to Lotus Pools to Wisdom Runes to making sure to control creep equilibrium to be able to push at ~10:30 with the Catapult. It gets tiring quickly.

The difference between pro-dota, where most of these things are a given, and the divine to immortal mmr bracket is just too massive, with players typically farming the wrong sides of the map. It makes predicting the enemy and playing dota properly kind of impossible. Can't predict stupid. Much easier in LoL, but it lacks all that depth instead of just toning it down a little. Too bad there's no game that fits in between, kind of how Last Epoch fits in between the autism PoE vs the brainrot D4 design.

 

[hajro]

League is just brainrot mode tho.
Top just look enemy jungler pathing and u can play 1v1 fighting game with 4 moves.
Mid: Just pick champ with wave clear and gank ( idiot side lanes never ward until GM)
Jungle: Full clear then check if your side is gankable (if not recall, buy item and reset)
support: just wave control for whichever type of support you are and you win every lane because support playersr are the most room temp iq incestspawn ever
adc:just farm and pray your support isnt mentally disabled.