Death in RPGs

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Uhm no, its not like reloading.

If you reload, not only your status will be set back, but also the status of your enemies. You face the exact situation again with the full number of enemies, and until you master it, no reloading will help you.

The way prey does it, you can eliminate 1 enemy then die, and be ressurected with full hitpoints again (because this retarded minigame is so easy that you will always regain full hitpoints), kill the next enemy...die...mini game... kill the third enemy.
So in fact it is a god mode interrupted by this shooting mini game.

As far as I know there is not even a fucking limit on how often you can do this resurection shit.

Of course you could say "but i can save after every enemy and if i die reload again, so its the same"

1) You wont have an guarantee that you have full hitpoints/ammo etc. when you safe. In prey, after you return from this shitworld - as I already explained - youll have almost complete hitpoints if youre not a complete retard
2) Even complete quicksave bitches dont save every 2 seconds during an encounter

 

[JarlFrank]

Okay, this IS like a godmode then.
If tweaked it could turn out to be neat though, they just need to make it a bit more complicated.
I hate games with no difficulty.

 

[User was nabbed fit]

Who says it has to be as easy as Prey? It could be done so that you'd have to make the 'mini-game' your bitch and act as if it owed you money if you wanted any decent amount of stats regained. It could all be very different; I just gave Prey as an example for the bases.

 

[Monolith]

Assuming you have a fantasy setting with magic, you could, say, pay a priest or whatnot to resurrect you in case you'll die. This could cost you large sum of gold...and the need of sacrificing somebody to get his life energy or shit like that. Plus your equipment would be lost and you could suffer some skill loss as being resurrected is fucking tiresome...or even better, you could take over the body of the person who's sacrificed. Having totally diffrent skills and a different body...ah, whatever, just dreaming.

 

[JarlFrank]

Who says it has to be as easy as Prey? It could be done so that you'd have to make the 'mini-game' your bitch and act as if it owed you money if you wanted any decent amount of stats regained. It could all be very different; I just gave Prey as an example for the bases.

You could be resurrected by a god and stay in eternal debt for that.
Makes up for interesting quests.
"Do this errand for me, mortal, I saved your life!"
"I don't have time now."
"WHAT? BURN IN ETERNAL DAMNATION!"
"Okay okay I'll do it."

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

or even better, you could take over the body of the person who's sacrificed. Having totally diffrent skills and a different body...ah, whatever, just dreaming.

I was thinking about something vaguely similar to this at one point. Each character would have what I called a 'soul box'. When you first created a character, they would have the created character's soul in that box. In your travels, you could find other souls to add to a character's soul box (they would be extremely rare, however, and you could only retain a certain number). A portion of the new soul's abilities would be available to the character, as well. For instance, if the soul is a master of axe combat, the character would gain a level or two of axe skill. When the character is killed, the character's soul would be lost, and one of the other souls in the box (provided there are any) would take over. So, the character would be morphed into someone else, possibly retaining some of the statistics of the original character. This gave the player some influence over what would happen if they're character died.

 

[Monolith]

I was thinking about something vaguely similar to this at one point. Each character would have what I called a 'soul box'. When you first created a character, they would have the created character's soul in that box. In your travels, you could find other souls to add to a character's soul box (they would be extremely rare, however, and you could only retain a certain number). A portion of the new soul's abilities would be available to the character, as well. For instance, if the soul is a master of axe combat, the character would gain a level or two of axe skill. When the character is killed, the character's soul would be lost, and one of the other souls in the box (provided there are any) would take over. So, the character would be morphed into someone else, possibly retaining some of the statistics of the original character. This gave the player some influence over what would happen if they're character died.

That starts to be rather interesting if you actually take over character traits. I don't see a way to incorporate that into a RPG though. Only way would be through vivid recollections (i. e. Planescape: Torment) or...well, through "dialog system" I suggested HERE. You can take over somebody's soul, thus benefiting of his skills. By that your personality is changed, matching the one of your...soulmate. That then could change dialog options and so on.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

- Prey has an interesting response to this question. The character never really dies. When the character dies he's thrown in the afterworld and the player must fight to regain health (and mana) in a limited time. He's progressively sucked back to the physical world. Then he only has the health and mana he regained in the afterworld. Simple but efficient.

Sounds like the Soul Reaver series.

 

[Pussycat669]

The same as that soul collecting idea.
I dunno, sounds like a contradiction to the whole concept of character development. But it's an idea none the less.

 

[Azael]

I honestly can't see permadeath working in a story/interaction heavy CRPG, at least not to a degree that I'd find satisfying. I'd like to try a game that succeeds in doing this though. The only way to do it in a game like that would be to make combat very rare and pretty much always a last resort, unless you are certain to win, and focusing the gameplay around more social or stealthy approaches to problem solving, including letting other people do your fighting for you. The game should also be rather short and with several different ways to play it, including randomizing, so that in case your character does die, you're not forced to slog through the same shit in the same way. There also needs to be different outcomes to failure besides death, including options to surrender or flee when combat isn't going your way; getting knocked out cold and robbed, but left alive; captured and thrown in jail (after all, what kind of police/city guard kills all suspected criminals on sight? Besides the NYPD, of course) and having to use your skills to get out your predicament; etc. Violent struggles don't always end with death in real life, and shouldn't do so in all games either. Maybe one solid punch is enough to get the pub brawler to back off and find an easier target? Maybe punching you once and having you get the fuck out his way is enough as well? Could be interesting if someone gets it to work.

 

[Psycroptic]

Assuming you have a fantasy setting with magic, you could, say, pay a priest or whatnot to resurrect you in case you'll die. This could cost you large sum of gold...and the need of sacrificing somebody to get his life energy or shit like that. Plus your equipment would be lost and you could suffer some skill loss as being resurrected is fucking tiresome...or even better, you could take over the body of the person who's sacrificed. Having totally diffrent skills and a different body...ah, whatever, just dreaming.

This is kind of what the old Autoduel game did. If you died then that was the end of the game, but amassing 5000 credits allowed you to purchase a clone. That way, when you were killed your clone would be able to keep going. I think you lost the car you were driving at the time, which was basically the same as losing inventory.

 

[LCJr.]

Just saw this on Abandonia Reloaded http://www.reloaded.org/download/Blues- ... s-RPG/284/

Blues Brothers RPG, no saving period. If either Jake or Elwood dies you lose the game.

 

[Monolith]

I honestly can't see permadeath working in a story/interaction heavy CRPG, at least not to a degree that I'd find satisfying.

Alright, but the thread isn't about permadeath. It's about getting away from RPGs being quickloadfests. Any ideas how to change that? Making combat easier (Bioware's approach)? Permadeath is just an option.

 

[Volourn]

"I honestly can't see permadeath working in a story/interaction heavy CRPG"

Worked in BG2, and PST.

 

[JarlFrank]

"I honestly can't see permadeath working in a story/interaction heavy CRPG"

Worked in BG2, and PST.

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Volourn]

Read the fuckin' quote.

 

[JarlFrank]

Read the fuckin' quote.

there is no permadeath in these games.
What made you think so?

 

[Volourn]

You die, you die. Yes, even in PST, there is Final death tm. Moron.

Oh, wait, let me guess. You are one of those peons who actually thinks 'perma death' = no reload, no raising the dead, or such other nonsense.

Utter bullocks. And, bullshit to boot.

 

[JarlFrank]

You die, you die. Yes, even in PST, there is Final death tm. Moron.

Oh, wait, let me guess. You are one of those peons who actually thinks 'perma death' = no reload, no raising the dead, or such other nonsense.

Utter bullocks. And, bullshit to boot.

Well, most people here used the term "perma death" to describe the "ironman mode" which means no reload. If you would have read the whole thread you could have guessed that out of the context.
Idiot.

 

[Azael]

"I honestly can't see permadeath working in a story/interaction heavy CRPG"

Worked in BG2, and PST.

Why do you lie? There's no permadeath in either of those games as you're always free to load up another save and go at it again. Had you been forced to roll up a new character and start from the beginning, you'd be correct.

Alright, but the thread isn't about permadeath. It's about getting away from RPGs being quickloadfests. Any ideas how to change that? Making combat easier (Bioware's approach)? Permadeath is just an option.

Combat should never be "easy", even against weaker opponents you should have the risk of losing hanging over your head as the sword of Damocles. The solution to me would be to have more resolutions to combat and conflict than death and game over man, game over! Like I said in my earlier post, combat shouldn't always be to the death, nor should it wait around every corner. Change the style of gameplay and give failure interesting results as well and you'll reduce some of the incentive to reload, but don't remove the option in case the player screws up.

 

[AlanC9]

Is there really permadeath in any game? Even if the game deletes all your saves the moment you lose a battle, an alert player can kill the process before this happens. Worked with ToEE, for instance.

Unless the game's got a single indispensable character and a save-or-die ruleset. But a game like that shouldn't have a permadeath option anyway, since even a good player could lose through no fault of his own.

Edit: I guess you could make a game that deleted your save the moment you loaded it, and didn't save another until you quit. Great, as long as the software's crash-proof.

 

[Ladonna]

Wasteland had a bitch system on the C64....and Deathlord.... :shock:

Lets just say these two were how to NOT do permadeath.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

Wasteland had a bitch system on the C64....and Deathlord.... :shock:

Lets just say these two were how to NOT do permadeath.

God, I remember Deathlord. It was brutal. I also remember playing Wizardry 5, and its permadeath. There was a teleport spell in the game, and I recall accidentally teleporting my party into bedrock. It completely obliterated my party, and the game is saved immediately when anyone in the party is killed. The only option in this case, though, was to start over. It was possible to have a second party travel down the dungeon and drag the dead bodies back to the surface, but there were a couple reasons this was usually impractical or even impossible.

Is there really permadeath in any game? Even if the game deletes all your saves the moment you lose a battle, an alert player can kill the process before this happens. Worked with ToEE, for instance.

Unless the game's got a single indispensable character and a save-or-die ruleset. But a game like that shouldn't have a permadeath option anyway, since even a good player could lose through no fault of his own.

Edit: I guess you could make a game that deleted your save the moment you loaded it, and didn't save another until you quit. Great, as long as the software's crash-proof.

True permadeath is pretty much impossible, as long as the save files are stored on your computer. Some people view copying a save file as cheating, but the possibility is still available. The only way I can think to prevent this is to store the character data information on a server (as is the case with Diablo).

 

[Monolith]

What I would like to see in games:
1) Less combat encounters. No stupid grind combat at all. Killing 10000 enemies is both boring and unrealistic.
2) Plausible reasons for being in the combat, not a lame-ass excuse like "they are evil and attack everyone".
3) Plausible goals. Virtually no combat in real-life happens because person A wants to kill person B. That isn't combat anyway, that's a murder attempt.
4) Realistic reaction from enemies. I find it extremely frustrating when 99% of all NPCs are mindless drones who gladly sacrifice themselves to deal you some damage. If designer does not expect you to reload, he should not expect NPCs to die, if you get what I mean.
5) It should not be about two groups of people hitting each other with swords until their HPs run out. Enemies should attack, withdraw, etc. Possibly, they should have their own goals.

When all those goals will be met, I might think about not reloading upon character death.

That, more or less, is what I have in mind. Combat to death isn't something that happens around every next corner. It's reserved for special situations. Sure, a thug can be desperate enough to try to kill for a buck or two. But if his seemingly weak victim turns out to be more than he can handle, he'll try to get the fuck out quickly. I'm not so sure how to implement point 5 though. I'm all for enemies with personalities. One fucker will fight to death, while the other one will flee at the first sight of blood. And a different one will side with the winner and backstab his formerally. Make such things determined by charisma and a variety of skills and things can be getting interesting.

This is a very good idea Monolith. At any time you could change your combat mode between brawling and to the death. Also to make things interesting, you could add a chance that a non lethal attack could turn deadly by accident and this could enrage your opponents.

This could be determined every combat turn. As an example your enemies may initially want to kill you and then lose the will to do it. This could also apply to the members of your party. A good natured party member may be unwilling to kill their opponents until they get very angry.

I can imagine a situation where street toughs beat you unconscious and take all of your possessions. Then you could go on a quest to get your items back.

The Gothic series used a similar system. You couldn't switch combat modes, but the disposition of a NPC would determine if you're brawling or fighting to death. And you always had the option to finish off the enemy after a brawl. That's a good system IMO. It depends on the NPC (therefore, the context) and it still leaves the player with a choice. The way it's been incorporated isn't the best though. Any fight with NPCs could be marked as a brawl for instance. If a NPCs meets certain requirements though, he'll keep fighting on even if the enemy is already defeated. This could apply to party NPCs as well. There could be indicators such as "rage" , "fear" and "control". If you accidently kill an enemy's companion in a brawl, his "rage" indicator could go up by 10 points as well as his "fear" indicator. His control attribute would determine then when the enemy turns deadly, stays in brawl mode or wants to flee. If "control" is 6 and rage passes 60 points, but his fear is lower than 60 points, he'll turn deadly. If fear exceeds 60 points the enemy will stay in brawl mode. If his rage is less 60, but fear is above, he'd be prone to flee. There could be other triggers that would depend on the situation. Certain NPCs would go for a lethal fight instantly. But it would be important to make that clear to the player (if the situation as such isn't clear enough).

EDIT:
Oh well, my fear is that this could be too "arcade". If you're strong enough, you'll switch from brawl to kill. Otherwise, if not, there's a chacne you're just beaten up and a load isn't necessary...the best way to incorperated this into a game would be through much text though, I think. Either totally text based, or some text describing the outcome. If you choose to brawl because you're not sure if the enemy is weak or strong, you'd get a message box telling you that after defeating your enemies (in brawl mode), you took their valuables and allow them to leave the scene badly bruised. That would take away the choice to switch to killing mode when you got the upper hand, but it would be much more...immersive and actually would make a difference. Take a risk and perhaps lose your char through permadeath, or don't take risks and let them running.

 

[Davaris]

This is an excellent thread.

I quite like the simplicity of the vast majority of enemies will prefer to flee rather than face certain death. However you'd have to take into account that the player would find it much harder to find loot as there would be fewer corpses.

You could also include a rule where the player loses consciousness at HP < 1 and at HP < -X% they are dead. Then you could script whether a foe will choose to finish you off if all party members are unconscious, dead or have fled. This could be a simple script in the case of a random encounter, or a more complex one if you were defeated by a major character.