David Gaider lubs us.

[Saint_Proverbius]

Troika, for starters. That interview with Mr. Cain when he disses both BIS, and BIO for doing a "half breed redition of the D&D rules in PST & NWN" isn't exactly full fo humility, ain't it? Now, of course, the question wasa fool; but still.

Actually, his point was that you have to change the rules to make them fit real time, and that's a true statement. I've even pointed out to you, with specific reasons, why this is true.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for Gaider's comments on Troika, and TOEE; how 'bout we agree that it is open to interpretation.

You got yourself a deal, mister I'm ok with opposite views as long as mine isn't being portrayed as made up or totally wrong.

Anyways, thabnks for the "compliments"; I guess.

You are welcome

Not that I need them.

Don't be so bitchy :wink:

 

[Volourn]

SP, yes, but the same can be said for what both Gaider and Sawyer. All three didn't technically lie about anything. Both Gaider's, and Sawyer's main pioints were that compromises will have to be made period. That's a fact.

VD: No problemo. A deal is a deal. 8)

Heheh. I'll try not to bitchy; but then again; isn't that what RPGCodex is all about? :wink:

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'll try not to btichy; but then again; isn't that what RPGCodex is all about? :wink:

Touche

 

[EEVIAC]

*yawn* Every game box talks about how great the game is. Name one so-called bad game that had the following on the box: "This game sucks ass; don't buy it!". Please, I can't believe you think BIo is special in this regard.

Every game box? Lets compare back cover blurbs from NWN and Arcanum :

Arcanum :

Imagine a place of wonder, where magic and technology coexist in an uneasy balance, and an adventurer might just as easily wield a flintlock pistol as a flaming sword. A place where great industrial cities house castle keeps and factories, home to Dwarves, Humans, Orcs, and Elves alike. A place of ancient runes and steamworks, of magic and machines, of sorcery and science. Welcome to land of Arcanum.

NWN :

Neverwinter Nights revolutionizes PC gaming by giving players the power they've never had before [1] - power to create their own universe. With the Neverwinter Aurora Toolset, the game you want in the game you build. Whether venturing through the single-player campaign or participating online with your many friends (or enemies), Neverwinter Nights is any game you want it to be [2]. With a wide array of customizable characters and encironments, it is a game of endless variety. It is the evolution of PC gaming. Neverwinter Nights, it changes everything.

[1] Vampire actually included the same gameplay devices, the ST mode, the world builder, so they have in fact had the same power before. Perhaps not in as easy to use an interface.

[2] If I wanted to be snide I'd say "any game other than a role playing game" but in truth, its limited, out of the box at least, to combat orientated fantasy encounters. The blurb remarks suggest much more.

Notice a difference? Tell me how Bioware (or Blo (blow) as you put it) are not up themselves?

 

[Jed]

Here's some goodness I found in the archives:

IGNPC: So what's so great about Neverwinter Nights, anyway?

Trent Oster: I don't think anybody's ever tackled the whole dungeon mastering in real time to the same extent that we have. We've put a lot of effort into it. As well, the toolset with its pure accessibility, I think we're really going to shine. We've targeted a lot of effort to the multiplayer side, but I think a lot of people have underestimated the single player and I think it'll really shine on the single player. A lot of people will come in and play it through. Our goal is that people can go and play the game single player, never go online and never fire up the tool set and they've still got a great gaming experience. If we can hit that, I think we've succeeded.

Ray Muzyka: When we started talking in '97 about Neverwinter, we always envisioned it as a table with four legs -- the single player, the multiplayer, the DMing tools and the toolset (the module making tools). They all appeal to different groups and we've tried to make them all equivalently high quality. We realize that not everyone's going to be into making modules or being DM (or playing multiplayer, for that matter). The single player experience has to be as good as anything we've ever done in BG, BG2 or Throne of Bhaal and hopefully better. Our goal here at BioWare is that each game we do has to be better than the previous one. It really depends on the person but all four of those areas are sort of the focuses of different parts of the team

Greg Zeschuk: I think another really good point is that it's very ambitious. It's the kind of game you make before you really have a comprehension of what you're trying to accomplish. All these things sound great and when we sat down to do them, it just took a lot of work. But I think we've been really happy with the way it's turning out because they all tie together beautifully. What's most exciting about it is that it's integrated. Everything fits nicely and it's consistent across all the ways you can play it. However it works, it's really kind of cool.

Interesting so many NWN defenders try to say that NWN is primarily a multiplayer game, and that Bioware themselves weren't happy with the OC. Seems like Doc Ray saying the OC is better than all previous Biofests is pretty happy with what they had done.

Funny how in the hype storm, talk of compromises were nowhere to be seen:

How much of AD&D's personality will be reflected in the game?
We are extremely loyal to the D&D rules and we are very dedicated to keeping the rules as close to the pen and paper game as possible. We want the 3rd Edition Players Handbook to be a perfectly valid reference for NWN and we want NWN to be great reference material for the 3rd Edition rules.

This was just too good to be true:

FS: Will it be truly possible to play and beat the game as an evil character alignment in the single player campaign?
G: Yes – there is an evil path as well as a good path. My favorite part about the evil path was that I could shake everyone down for extra money – eventually everyone disliked me though.

 

[Ibbz]

Do you people really expect Bioware to bad mouth their own game?

"This is the shittest game we've ever made. I mean come on? what were thinking? Musta been tanked that night!"

Of course not. They'll try and talk up their games as much as possible TO GET AS MANY SALES as possible. Which is the whole reason Bioware exists - TO MAKE MONEY as its a business not a charity organization.

And as for you Spazmo - No one forced you to buy NWN, you could've waited until Saint posted his review, or bought it from EB and returned it etc. Its your own fault you spent that money on a product that didnt live up to your expectations.

 

[Jed]

Do you people really expect Bioware to bad mouth their own game? "This is the shittest game we've ever made. I mean come on? what were thinking? Musta been tanked that night!" Of course not. They'll try and talk up their games as much as possible TO GET AS MANY SALES as possible. Which is the whole reason Bioware exists - TO MAKE MONEY as its a business not a charity organization.

So which is it? According to Volourn, Bioware have nothing to do with publicity. They're innocent victims of an overzealous marketing department ("The best RPG!"). If this is true, it would seem there could be room for some humility on the developer's part. Hell, maybe even an apology or two (At least to Mac and Linux members of the "NWN community"?). If Bioware were so saavy at business, they wouldn't have continued to break promises to the game-starved Mac & Linux users for so long. But, in true Bioware fashion, the attitude is "if you don't like it, too bad--compromises must be made."

 

[Araanor]

Troika, for starters. That interview with Mr. Cain when he disses both BIS, and BIO for doing a "half breed redition of the D&D rules in PST & NWN" isn't exactly full fo humility, ain't it? Now, of course, the question wasa fool; but still.

You were out to prove other developers say they are the "bestest evar", and you pick this? Do I have to point out what's wrong? Cain gave an answer to the question, it may be interpreted as criticism at those other games but nowhere did he state falsehood or hype his game to the heavens.

The quotes XJEDX dug up speak for themselves.

 

[Jed]

You were out to prove other developers say they are the "bestest evar", and you pick this? Do I have to point out what's wrong? Cain gave an answer to the question, it may be interpreted as criticism at those other games but nowhere did he state falsehood or hype his game to the heavens. The quotes XJEDX dug up speak for themselves.

Not even to have to mention again, but what Tim said is objective: turning D&D into RT is a hybridzation of two different things. This statement is not an opinion, it is a fact.

 

[Ibbz]

So which is it? According to Volourn, Bioware have nothing to do with publicity. They're innocent victims of an overzealous marketing department ("The best RPG!"). If this is true, it would seem there could be room for some humility on the developer's part. Hell, maybe even an apology or two (At least to Mac and Linux members of the "NWN community"?). If Bioware were so saavy at business, they wouldn't have continued to break promises to the game-starved Mac & Linux users for so long. But, in true Bioware fashion, the attitude is "if you don't like it, too bad--compromises must be made."

Obviously Bioware are the one that writes the answers to the interviews and Atari/Infogrames do the box. And why should they apologise to Mac and Linux members? Both of them have their clients now.

 

[Psilon]

Clients, yes, though significantly delayed. So much for the multiplatform launch. Oh, and the toolset? Unless you've got a Windows box you're screwed. I sincerely doubt that you can just use your Mac CDs to install a Windows copy, like Warcraft III and Quake III let you do. That's another $50 down the toilet.

 

[Jed]

Both of them have their clients now.

Exactly.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Probably because both were promised shortly after relase, and it took over a year to do both.

 

[Ibbz]

I sincerely doubt that you can just use your Mac CDs to install a Windows copy, like Warcraft III and Quake III let you do. That's another $50 down the toilet.

Why would you buy a mac copy if you wanted to install on Windows?

I'll presume you actually meant the other way round. I still dont see why you would purchase a Windows copy if your intention all along was to play it on a Mac. Its not as if Bioware is the only developer to release seperate version of their software in different boxes, I can remember Call to Power had two seperate boxes for their linux and windows editions.

 

[Nomad]

Actually, you can install the SoU expansion pack on to your Mac / Linux box using the Windows CDs:

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... 3&forum=71


N.

 

[Psilon]

Why would you buy a mac copy if you wanted to install on Windows?

Say, because one had a Mac for gaming and wanted to fool around with the toolset on a cheap Windows box. Also, remember that every sale of a Windows CD counts as another Windows user to the retailers. That's part of the reason why Q3 for Linux didn't sell too well; everyone bought the Windows version when it came out and then moved over to Linux when it was out for download. Retailers' conclusion? No one uses Linux, so we'll create the world's tiniest Linux shelf. Developers' subsequent conclusion? There's no market for Linux, so any ports we do can take another three months. Players' conclusion? Why not buy the Windows version so I can play right now! Repeat ad infinitum. That's why Q3 tanked at retail yet there's a huge contingent of Linux players.

Given that it's really the data files--including the atrocious single-player campaign--that people are paying for and that require the multiple CDs, they really should just make the binaries available for download like Id does. Alternately, they could get the release right. Epic did it with UT2003. Blizzard did it with WarCraft III.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't expect companies to bad mouth their own products (that would be ridiculous), but i'd expect them to keep a level head and not make comments that overstepped the boundaries of their work. Im not even talking about the absurd packaging blurbs in the sense of "teh best RPG evah!!1!1!!!". Im talking about their first plans and their comments on their work. Its hard to believe Bioware themselves had nothing to do with the publicity given the general type of speech is pretty much the same everywhere they go. Even if they didn't decide, what the hell is up with that? Are they just like a cave-like race which is forced to labour all day and night, sending ore to the above world, without an opinon on anything? They're a mess, thats what they are.

Trent Oster:
Our goal is that people can go and play the game single player, never go online and never fire up the tool set and they've still got a great gaming experience. If we can hit that, I think we've succeeded.

Well guess what, they didn't. So, why act as if they have?

Ray Muzika:
The single player experience has to be as good as anything we've ever done in BG, BG2 or Throne of Bhaal and hopefully better. Our goal here at BioWare is that each game we do has to be better than the previous one. It really depends on the person but all four of those areas are sort of the focuses of different parts of the team

If they failed their goal, and this many Bioware apologists will agree with, that the OC, the GAME, fails in comparison to previous Bioware games, why act as if they succeed in it?

For factual proof on how they actually act as if they had presented the pinnacle in gaming history, just read Gaider's interviews or comments/answers to people who criticize his product. He insults them and acts as if anyone that criticizes his product his either clueless, or retarded.

No i don't expect companies to badmouth their products. Though i expect them to be honest (or in the very least, that they don't blow out of proportion the value and overall achievements of their products).

Aiming one of Ravel's lines at David Gaider: "You've lost your place, little man. Humility is in order."

 

[Volourn]

RP: You seem to think that everyone didn't enjoy the OC. I know a lot of long time pnp role-players who played the NWN OC only; and throughly enjoyed the game. Yeha, I know, that makes those people retarded or BIO fanboys - then again, one of those people is a doctor, and doesn't even know who BIO is. He bought the game on my reccommenddation, and the fact it's D&D. He has no time to play on-line yet to him it's money well spent. Go figure.

I, myself, agree that the OC wasn't as good as the Bg series. However, unfortunately, none of us here speak for everybody. There are people who disliked the Bg series for whatever reason yet enjoyed NWN OC.

And, please once again, Gaider can accept critcism of the product. To say he can't proves that you miss the times wher ehe agrees with it. In fact, after TOB; people (including myself) felt that Balthazar the monk wasn't as good as he could be. Gaider agreed with that assessment, and went out of his way to make it better hence the creation of Acession. As for NWN, like I've stated before, he has expressed dissapointment over the henchmen over, and over agin. Perhaps, te criticism he gets "upset" about is the criticism laced with hatred, posion, and too much emotional baggage. Or criticism that is menat to belittle not to helpful like is often seen here. Gaider discuss the game's weak and straong points just fine with those who can act relatively mature.

Now, as for them overrating their products. Well.. When those said products tend to win multiple awards, sell millions of copies, and get overall good reviews; how cna you say they're overrating them. Geez.. You sound like the one hundred or so people who post (semi)regularily speak for the masses or something.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

RP: You seem to think that everyone didn't enjoy the OC. I know a lot of long time pnp role-players who played the NWN OC only; and throughly enjoyed the game. Yeha, I know, that makes those people retarded or BIO fanboys - then again, one of those people is a doctor, and doesn't even know who BIO is. He bought the game on my reccommenddation, and the fact it's D&D. He has no time to play on-line yet to him it's money well spent. Go figure.

I don't think its exactly a question of me thinking that everyone disliked the OC. I think its a question of 1) Not everyone who played the OC still plays it (and given the standard, general mantra of Bioware fans, when pointed to the OC's faults, is "Play the Modules", so i don't think most of them still play the OC), and 2) Its mostly (in this topic anyway) about people in a company not owning up to some mistakes or misconceptions they have about their products.

I, myself, agree that the OC wasn't as good as the Bg series. However, unfortunately, none of us here speak for everybody. There are people who disliked the Bg series for whatever reason yet enjoyed NWN OC.

Because, more than likely, NWN, when compared to past BIO products, doesn't show a higher commitment to quality (incidentally the thing BIO is supposedly commited to in every game they make). This may now seem like a gross generalization, but the usual underlying feeling one gets out of gamers is that no matter how much they liked the OC, they won't replay it often. People will usually flock over to fan-made modules, or to multiplayer (or they might even move on to other games). Many fans of the game will give out suggestions of fan-made modules. Many players spend their times online (there a vereitable slew of servers, so why shouldn't they?).

So while i should say that i agree with you and say i don't speak for gamers as a whole, i should also say i talk about what i see.

And, please once again, Gaider can accept critcism of the product.

Actually i've only seen him accept criticism of his work when he does it himself - interviews i've been reading, and message board posts, its majorly him talking about compromises having to be made, and things he regrets he couldn't do; however when others mention the same, they're either ignored or frowned upon (i seem to also remember NWN forum users who were banned because of said issues?). Some people (like Visceris) got insulted and treated like 3 year olds. Some other issues popped up in various other circumstances, not only reposted on nwvault.ign.com, but also visible in his pseudo-attack at us folks here. The fact is he didn't answered anything we said, merely making a derogatory comment regarding our views on RPGs.

Really, this is set to brainstun even the most mentally debilitated person - one rule of design is, when creating a product (wheter there have to be few or many compromises), that there must be a level of achievement in the product which makes it reach all layers of the market, wheter it touches consumers superficially (by just having them have word of mouth regarding a product and just being aware, but not necessarily interested in it; simple awareness) to a deep way (by having them realize the product can change their lives in various ways; what is called "selling what people want the product to give them, or make them into, not selling the product itself") - in short, the product, while obviously not designed for everyone, must try to reach everyone, as best as it can. Unless of course its strictly for one single layer of the market. In this case we're talking about RPGs - and RPGs, while severely mainstreamed over the last years, still have a niche market. And to please this niche market, it has to possess some qualities which will reach out to the various player types.

Gaider is a designer and states its not worth including in his product certain qualities (in this case varied roleplaying opportunities, specifically evil roleplaying opportunities, and other general things, such as not including several different endings because, among other reasons, "most people are only going to play the game once.") which might help the product sell (Q1). Furthermore he says he speaks from personal experience. He also claims that "sometimes you've got to work with what you have".(Q2)

Question 1: Where the flying **** did he learned Design?

Question 2: So he's basically telling us Bioware was incapable of working with the programs they created themselves, but the fans, who are not trained and paid professionals, were capable? 5 years and a toolset they supposedly know how to work with was not enough to deliver something better? They're incapable of making simple things like manageable henchmen inventory, and yet are perfectly capable to wait for the fans to do it so they can include it in their own future expansions?

Furthermore, which is it? Giving the fans something to work with, or time constrains and compromises?

To say he can't proves that you miss the times wher ehe agrees with it.

Guess im just unlucky i guess, and tent to miss the times he does it in a meaningful way.

In fact, after TOB; people (including myself) felt that Balthazar the monk wasn't as good as he could be. Gaider agreed with that assessment, and went out of his way to make it better hence the creation of Acession.

I'm aware of that. Plus the file which inserted the l33t abilities of the Bhallspawn PC back, removed from the game. I didn't personally enjoyed the "improvements", but to be fair, he did made them outside of the company itself, to fans. However one redeeming action doesn't bode well for the rest of his usual haphazard moments when he clashes against his non-suporters.

On an aside, Balthazar, and any other high-level Bhaalspawn, could be dealt with easily because of the general level and items people had when they reached them. Try killing Balthazar at level 15 for all your party with lesser uber-items, and try taking more specialized classes like Bards, Rogues and Sorcerers. When i took Fighters, Kensais dualled to Mages and the likes, i never had problems. With less-played classes it could get hairy. So i always considered that improvement aspect a bit dubious.

As for NWN, like I've stated before, he has expressed dissapointment over the henchmen over, and over agin. Perhaps, te criticism he gets "upset" about is the criticism laced with hatred, posion, and too much emotional baggage.

He should get upset - after all, it was us that followed the development time, waiting from the get go an engine which would allow me to create my own RPG adventures, to seeing it being dubbed "the best RPG ever" with a mahvelous SP OC. Stating that it would be better than BG and BG2 was an immense overstatement, and a tremendously faulty marketing idea - blowing products' characteristics out of proportions didn't helped them (and i hope they learn their lesson when they create future, in-house-developed CRPGs). The problem goes deeper when he (Gaider) can't accept that criticism. He could own up, and make an official statement, by saying where they faield, and how they didn't delivered what we expected (and all we expected, came from their own statements).

In itself i don't need him to make such a statement. Ive already seen where they failed. The problem is that he acts as if such a statement was not needed, because he doesn't accept them, unless he words them out himself.

Or criticism that is menat to belittle not to helpful like is often seen here. Gaider discuss the game's weak and straong points just fine with those who can act relatively mature.

Like he did with Visceris?

Now, as for them overrating their products. Well.. When those said products tend to win multiple awards, sell millions of copies, and get overall good reviews; how cna you say they're overrating them. Geez.. You sound like the one hundred or so people who post (semi)regularily speak for the masses or something.

Lets say i make a standard, non-descript RPG. If everyone hypes it, should i stop looking at it objectively and accept the hype? Awards sometimes are not the best way to label a product, and certainly not the best significance of quality. Gaider probably already knows this, given not everyone is happy with his work. There are countless products in the market who do better than the more hyped ones - does that mean they are bad because they're not hyped? No it means that probably someone with a good set of ideas managed to implement them but failed in their advertising, and resorted to consumer good will and heresay than actual hype. I could also again point out to games like which had lesser production values, less people, less money and less time than NWN or even BG2, had to deal with many more constraints and compromises, and still managed to deliver more than NWN on the point where NWN is more hyped about - roleplay.

Im not stating Bioware should give up, neither that they should consider their products crap. In fact they can feel proud of the *entire* NWNian package, if they so wish, im sure its the greatest achievement they've made all by themselves. However, they should honestly try to understand why people still say their games have problems, regardless of other people hyping them. Just because many supposedly like their games, that doesn't mean they should stop, sit down and flatter themselves without being critical of their work.

 

[Volourn]

Okay, I agree with basically everything you wrote there or at the very least understand where you coming from.

However, using Visceris as a "mature" poster when it comes to criticizing thing is a very horrible example. Visc is very far from a good eample. And, I can say that despite the fact I actually like Visc. Have you even read Viseral Doom's posts at all? Most of them are just ranting for the ske of ranting full of insults, and ludricrous over generalizations. Believe me, Visc does not pass the maturity scale. And, this isn't limited to his Bioware posts. This is shown on the Interplay boards, and the Atari boards dedicated to TOEE. 'Tis a shame, really.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I actually have read them. Regardless of Visceris' posts being a little brash or not, Gaider's responses to him were overly condescending. Many folks claimed Visc was a troll - have they looked at Gaider's responses at him? Im not trying to excuse Visc here, mind you - just stating that the responses Gaider made to him aren't exactly exemplary. In the end, neither was able to let their respective egos take a step back.

 

[Volourn]

If you think Gaider's responses were a little out there; you should take a gander at Sawyer's replies to Visceris. They ain't pretty. Believe me, I'm sure there's a solid example of Gaider going overboard in not handling criticism improperly - afterall, he is human - but Visceirs is not a good exampel to use as he deserves what he gets from any and all.