Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Wesp5]

Nuking Shady Sands seems almost demonic in a certain way, a way for the creators to destroy that old vision of Fallout and mock the original players and fans of the franchise in its glory days...

Again, this sounds exactly like nuking the New Republic in the Star Wars sequels! Just destroy everything positive the old creators have done so you can rebuild the world like you like it...

 

[Zarniwoop]

Nuking Shady Sands seems almost demonic in a certain way, a way for the creators to destroy that old vision of Fallout and mock the original players and fans of the franchise in its glory days...

Again, this sounds exactly like nuking the New Republic in the Star Wars sequels! Just destroy everything positive the old creators have done so you can rebuild the world like you like it...

Nuking it vs keeping it, but in Los Angeles. Which is worse and why? DISCUSS!!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Just destroy everything positive the old creators have done so you can rebuild the world like you like it...

It's also due to a complete lack of originality and creativity. Why do something new when you can push the reset button and repeat what the originators did the last time? Only this time, more gay and more diverse! It's that Tolkien paraphrased quote about evil not being able to create, only corrupt. While it's not what Tolkien actually wrote, it's a pretty good summary of what we've been saying over the last decade or so.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Problem (for Bethesda) with Fallout 2 and New Vegas is that the writers for those games were clearly trying to push the setting toward a "post-post apocalyptic" era with proper cities and law enforcement. Getting rid of the NCR is a good thing for them since it not only gets rid of one of the most important factions that they don't care about but it also helps lock the setting into an eternal stasis where it'll be apocalyptic ruins forever. And from a cold business POV they are in the right, I guess. I still remember Bethesda fans having a freakout over how developed New Vegas (how does it have a working electric grid????) was in relation to FO3 because everything didn't look like it was in shambles all the time. I'm going through FO1 & 2 again and NCR and Vault City look way more developed than the third world shanty towns that exist in FO3 & 4.

 

[0wca]

I mean the game literally NUKED Shady Sands AND New Vegas. They're basically saying the NCR doesn't exist

This is my major problem with the show. Reseting California so the show could happen is 100% pure shit. If you wanted a semi-lawless wasteland, there's so many less extreme ways of doing that. Set it earlier in the timeline, for example. Don't set it in California. Give the characters a reason to move around! There's only so much that NCR can control. They didn't even have very good control on things in Fallout 2, for example. Or here's a thought, explore the NCR bringing civilization back. It worked for Gene Roddenberry's Genesis II even though that show was scrapped in favor of making a Planet of the Apes TV series. It was revamped to make the series Andromeda, which was moved to be a space based sci-fi. But if you haven't seen Genesis II, you're missing out on some good post apocalyptic world building. There were also two sequels produced for television. Here's a bit more on that:

https://ripjaggerdojo.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-many-lives-of-dylan-hunt.html

not to mention continues to bastardize the BoS lore, by making them into even more cringe-inducing, paladin-like heroes.

The big problem with this is that they nuked Shady Sands. The BoS could have easily become "paladin-like" heroes under the NCR since the Big Fear(tm) the BoS had was that mankind would destroy themselves again with technology. However, present a hopeful view of the NCR and you can see the BoS coming around to being The Good Guys that Bethesda seems to like to flip flop on. The main reason the BoS actually helped you out at the end of Fallout is because the FEV is an example of old world technology threatening the existence of mankind. They weren't there to be good guys. They were there because it played in to their fears.

That's not to say they could never come around. It's even suggested that they do in one of the endings to Fallout 2, if I remember right - because of the NCR.

However, if you nuke Shady Sands, guess what that would do to the mindset of the Brotherhood of Steel given their backstory? They're going to double way the fuck down on their technology hording because the nuking of Shady Sands will basically confirm their fears. They won't be the good guys at all. They'll be more militant about technology than they've ever been.

Shady Sands always seemed to me to be the beginning of something wonderful, starting out as this simple post nuclear wasteland community and growing and developing into a proper city state.
It was human unity, ingenuity and hard work.
Nuking Shady Sands seems almost demonic in a certain way, a way for the creators to destroy that old vision of Fallout and mock the original players and fans of the franchise in its glory days...
If you watch closely across all forms of media, there are a lot of subliminal messages going on...

They want you to forget the old Fallout so that they can market you the nu-Fallout.

The whole family surviving that nuclear blast at the beginning is such bullshit too. They just stare at the nuke, whereas in reality they would all go blind and die from radiation poisoning.

The fact that one of the main character survives it and becomes an IMMORTAL ghoul is beyond fucking retarded. Ghouls were never immortal. It all started with the Fallout 4 'Kid in the Fridge' quest that some spastic retard came up with and then it just stuck with the lore.

Seriously, fuck these people.

 

[Jacov]

I've never seen a single person talking positively about the kid-in-the-fridge quest. Not even F4 fans.

 

[NecroLord]

They want you to forget the old Fallout so that they can market you the nu-Fallout.

You can never forget something which is forever in your heart...

 

[ColonelMace]

We can save a lot of time by simply saying that the show clearly tends towards Bethesdian® wackiness. It all boils down to this.
Whether they retconn everything about the west coast, M. House etc matters fuck all from there.
I'd actually would have found the whole ordeal even less tolerable had they cautiously implemented the set lore properly, because the artistic direction (for lack of a better expression) would have irremediably defiled it anyway.
At least, here, fans of the original setting are so estranged by Bethesdian Fallout that they can safely ignore it. Same as Fallout 3 and 4, really.

 

[0wca]

They want you to forget the old Fallout so that they can market you the nu-Fallout.

You can never forget something which is forever in your heart...

Every retard praising this show already did.

 

[cvv]

It's that Tolkien paraphrased quote about evil not being able to create, only corrupt. While it's not what Tolkien actually wrote, it's a pretty good summary

Frodo: "The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make, not real new things on its own." - LotR/RotK

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Some people still don't understand that as much as he may find Bethesda shit distasteful, he'll always hate you guys MORE, because you're the ones that call him a faggot(which he is, in multiple ways). Fundamentally, the people who enjoy the show are his people, not you.

 

[Tyranicon]

This entire debacle is why creatives need to own their IPs.

Working for someone else is exactly that, you give them the best years of your life, your best ideas, your best work, only to have some corporate stooges completely mangle your work years down the line.

Absolutely disgusting.

 

[Cohesion]

Some people still don't understand that as much as he may find Bethesda shit distasteful, he'll always hate you guys MORE, because you're the ones that call him a faggot(which he is, in multiple ways). Fundamentally, the people who enjoy the show are his people, not you.

Omg noooo people on codex call me faggot, what shall I do?? I will go to resetera or reddit echo chamber. Faggots will praise me, right, right?
Wrong! You are not Joshua Sawyer.
Can't stand the heat - get out of kitchen.

And codex loves and adores Tim.

 

[Roguey]

This entire debacle is why creatives need to own their IPs.

Working for someone else is exactly that, you give them the best years of your life, your best ideas, your best work, only to have some corporate stooges completely mangle your work years down the line.

Absolutely disgusting.

Tim himself says he has no interest in doing sequels. He's happily work-for-hire.

His work was Fallout and it remains as it was.

 

[NecroLord]

Some people still don't understand that as much as he may find Bethesda shit distasteful, he'll always hate you guys MORE, because you're the ones that call him a faggot(which he is, in multiple ways). Fundamentally, the people who enjoy the show are his people, not you.

He was OUR FAGGOT, dang it!
We enjoyed the fruits of his life's labor - Fallout and Troika.
He betrayed his loyal and true fans...
He acts as if the desecration of his former setting is a perfectly fine thing with no protest at all...

 

[Maldoror]

I do tend to agree that he's probably hoping that Todd will bring him on to work on a Fallout game in the future, even though there's basically 0% chance of that happening because Todd has already said that he knows what he wants to do with Fallout 5.

Glad that Tim raised the point about Vault-Tec not actually firing the nukes, because it does sort of line up with Mr. House being off by a week (supposing that he was at the meetings but had no actual intention of abiding by their plans, ergo saving only Vegas due to getting the chip late) and the Ghoul's family stuff - China probably still got there first.
Nonetheless, nothing will ever excuse nuking the NCR when you could have just had it lose the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam and then break down and collapse into a fragmented and largely lawless society which is exactly what Caesar was critiquing about them the entire time. You know, reinforcing the major themes of the last game that they were in?

 

[Wesp5]

Working for someone else is exactly that, you give them the best years of your life, your best ideas, your best work, only to have some corporate stooges completely mangle your work years down the line.

Which reminds me of Vampire - The Masquerade V5 edition and the upcoming Bloodlines 2...

 

[Cohesion]

Working for someone else is exactly that, you give them the best years of your life, your best ideas, your best work, only to have some corporate stooges completely mangle your work years down the line.

Which reminds me of Vampire - The Masquerade V5 edition and the upcoming Bloodlines 2...

The what??
Did you preorder?
I hope so, one of the devs need wheelchair, you are not bigot aren't you? You are a good boy!

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Some people still don't understand that as much as he may find Bethesda shit distasteful, he'll always hate you guys MORE, because you're the ones that call him a faggot(which he is, in multiple ways). Fundamentally, the people who enjoy the show are his people, not you.

Omg noooo people on codex call me faggot, what shall I do?? I will go to resetera or reddit echo chamber. Faggots will praise me, right, right?
Wrong! You are not Joshua Sawyer.
Can't stand the heat - get out of kitchen.

And codex loves and adores Tim.

What kind of schizo reply is this? And Tim is probably more welcome at resetera than Soyer, because despite his best efforts Soyer is still a straight white male.

 

[Cohesion]

Working for someone else is exactly that, you give them the best years of your life, your best ideas, your best work, only to have some corporate stooges completely mangle your work years down the line.

Which reminds me of Vampire - The Masquerade V5 edition and the upcoming Bloodlines 2...

The what??
Did you preorder?

Some people still don't understand that as much as he may find Bethesda shit distasteful, he'll always hate you guys MORE, because you're the ones that call him a faggot(which he is, in multiple ways). Fundamentally, the people who enjoy the show are his people, not you.

Omg noooo people on codex call me faggot, what shall I do?? I will go to resetera or reddit echo chamber. Faggots will praise me, right, right?
Wrong! You are not Joshua Sawyer.
Can't stand the heat - get out of kitchen.

And codex loves and adores Tim.

What kind of schizo reply is this? And Tim is probably more welcome at resetera than Soyer, because despite his best efforts Soyer is still a straight white male.

You are schizo. Tim is most welcome here. We have issue with him being a cuck, abandoning his fans and beloved IP.

 

[Sigourn]

Do people unironically believe Tim DOESN'T like the show? He loves it.
He simply has bad taste.

 

[Wesp5]

Working for someone else is exactly that, you give them the best years of your life, your best ideas, your best work, only to have some corporate stooges completely mangle your work years down the line.

Which reminds me of Vampire - The Masquerade V5 edition and the upcoming Bloodlines 2...

The what??
Did you preorder?
I hope so, one of the devs need wheelchair, you are not bigot aren't you? You are a good boy!

I didn't preorder, I am not stupid ! It seems to be the same problem though, TCR doesn't understand what made Bloodlines a classic and V5 basically destroyed much of the V20 lore to bring young hipster vampires to the front.

 

[__scribbles__]

I talk about something that rarely exists in game development that is commonplace in other industries: the Research & Development Department.

 

[StrongBelwas]

A department missing at most if not all game companies is Research & Development . Very important. It is the 'skunkworks' group that good ideas come out of. Feels like it is how Fallout was created accidentally given the first group was impromptu and thrown together on their own time.

R&D is around in automotive and aerospace, they take risks, come up with new designs, test them, experiment, innovate, etc. Whatever succeeds get passed onto production.

R&D is a complete money sink by definition. You aren't getting any money out of it. What you hope is that the new ideas create new products and the extensive experimentation saves money when you get into production. The experiments show your idea is a good one, your main risk now is if a lot of people buying it. R&D can let you test stuff like combat, level progression, cars, engines, wing design, etc.

Goes without saying these two groups have different mindsets, and Cain thinks they should have different personal. Very few people who can switch from one mindset to the other and are willing to do it. R&D values creativity, brain storming, and team work. Relatively small group, you don't want R&D to be too big and communication overhead to be a thing. They come up with new ideas, test them and discuss them, big egos should not be a thing. These people have to work together. Someone really introverted may not be able to work in R&D. Gotta be willing to say our ideas and have them critiqued. At this stage, suggestions about stuff like optimization and localization are inappropriate and could be disruptive to the process. People who can't understand that and/or can't turn it off are a net negative on R&D and don't belong. Pure thinkers also don't belong, you need to be able to actually try instantiating some of the concepts. If you just say, and you don't do, there isn't room for you in R&D. Cross-disciplinary work can be very useful, or being very good at listening at someone's concept. An artist listening to a programmer's suggestions on geosets for a dungeon and putting the concepts on how to improve it on the report to production is a good example.

Production is a very different area. Efficiency , scheduling, completion are valued. Usually a different group of people and if someone can do both they have to switch off the innovative risk taking bit and just focus on getting things done. Cain has worked with people so good at efficiency and scheduling that Cain wants them on his team just for that. This is the phase where localization and optimization occur, where you want someone to actually ask those questions. If there is a lot of art with words embedded, how do you localize that? They get the game over the finish line. Cain has worked with so many people who may not seem like a big deal at the start but by the end they are the ones dealing with all the bugs, going to voice sessions, locking down strings, and getting the game right. Worked with a woman who was so good with the organization side of things Cain could hand things to her knowing they would get done.

Both groups are super important, but often in game development all of this work is the same team working on the same project taking from the same budget. Bad idea. Whoever is handing you the money probably hates the idea of a money sink. All R&D does is experiment, they don't make anything besides prototypes, and you can't ship prototypes (Cain says this as someone who feels likes he has shipped prototypes before.) They don't want to fund an R&D phase, they want you to do the R&D phase on your own dime and then they fund production. Big companies can and should have R&D department, but they don't for various reasons (Think they are being smart by making someone else spend the money, don't see the value, etc.)

A team that tries to be good at both R&D and Production results in 1 of 2 games: A really neat game with disconnected features that don't work well together, the playtime is short, and the game is full of bugs with a bad framerate (Sound familiar?) Or, you have a slick game. Smooth presentation, constant framerate, really long with lots of sidequests with all the permutations and builds considered. But there is no innovation, not a single feature you haven't seen dozens of times (Sound familiar?) Cain feels that those two games describe a lot of the industry, and the exceptions happen because a game had a good R&D phase, but those are rare. R&D phases are needed, Cain thinks he has made a good argument for them, plus assigning them to a different team with different expectations of budgets, because you will never make money out of R&D. You grow a bunch of things there, one or two of them may lead to something. Car companies, aerospace companies, have done this for decades. Game companies don't, and Cain thinks it hurts them.

 

[Roguey]

Tim reading that glassdoor review of inxile that mentioned "Not enough research and development time leads to building the plane while flying it." and facepalming.