Alternate RPG history: no Diablo, no BG

[Cross]

Also

The vision document is from 1997

It's most definitely not, it appears you cannot read. It's version 1.5 from 2007. Let me know when you find an original copy.

The concept art sketches have the signature of the artist and date on them. It's 1997.

 

[Eisen]

Overwatch is released in early 2000s

What the fuck

 

[Arbiter]

Overwatch is released in early 2000s

What the fuck

What I meant is that without Diablo Blizzard would invest in FPS genre. Obviously that version of Overwatch (or whatever it would be named) would not be based on Titan assets.

 

[luj1]

Seething because you are a braindead imbecilic cretin.

When you want to talk about a game in the future, don't play it. Just read what the devs used as inspiration.

yes, I get it, it's an amazing game because you were 13 when you first played it and it reminds you of your childhood

But this was not about whether PST is amazing or not. It was about comparing the gameplay to gamebooks and Final Fantasy. Both of which are idiotic claims, made by a lost idiot.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Also

The vision document is from 1997

It's most definitely not, it appears you cannot read. It's version 1.5 from 2007. Let me know when you find an original copy.

The concept art sketches have the signature of the artist and date on them. It's 1997.

And?
The document has been edited multiple times since 1997, it is not the original.

 

[Cross]

Also

The vision document is from 1997

It's most definitely not, it appears you cannot read. It's version 1.5 from 2007. Let me know when you find an original copy.

The concept art sketches have the signature of the artist and date on them. It's 1997.

And?
The document has been edited multiple times since 1997, it is not the original.

How much more delusional can you get?

Here's a trailer from 1997 showing cutscenes and character models of Nordom, Ignus, Vhailor and various enemies.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Also

The vision document is from 1997

It's most definitely not, it appears you cannot read. It's version 1.5 from 2007. Let me know when you find an original copy.

The concept art sketches have the signature of the artist and date on them. It's 1997.

And?
The document has been edited multiple times since 1997, it is not the original.

How much more delusional can you get?

Here's a trailer from 1997 showing cutscenes and character models of Nordom, Ignus, Vhailor and various enemies.

Do you think a post on the codex that has been edited must have been edited the same time as the date it was posted at?

I'm curious as to how you'd go about explaining the credits mentioning both FF7 and FF8, does your mind just go blank when you read this?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

FF8 was released in japan February 11, 1999, NA release september 1999
PST, December 1999

Only thing that seems to make sense is that the credits were added late and the FF8 bit doesn't mean much...seems to be Kenneth Lee listing some games after everything was over ("thanks to SFZ3 for stress relief"). You'd have to ask him what the inspiration was, could be just some spell or general aesthetic that could be seen from the JP version.

Found an old argument about the subject

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/c/TsooR8Y28KE/m/epIHBB2pKOkJ

 

[rusty_shackleford]

almost like devs were actively working on a game until the very last day it went gold instead of just making a static vision document that magically grew into a game 2 years later
strange!

 

[Cross]

almost like devs were actively working on a game until the very last day it went gold instead of just making a static vision document that magically grew into a game 2 years later
strange!

You went from 'PS:T wouldn't exist without FF7' to 'some of the spell effects in PS:T might have been inspired by someone on the team watching a Japanese preview of FF8'.

Nice moving of the goalposts.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

almost like devs were actively working on a game until the very last day it went gold instead of just making a static vision document that magically grew into a game 2 years later
strange!

You went from 'PS:T wouldn't exist without FF7' to 'some of the spell effects in PS:T might have been inspired by someone on the team watching a Japanese preview of FF8'.

Nice moving of the goalposts.

PST is western final fantasy, a semi interactive book.

 

[luj1]

Rusty just because you can string words together doesn't mean you should. With this... insane sentence you demonstrated that you never played any of the three. Neither Planescape Torment nor Final Fantasy nor interactive books. I suggest you be merciful to yourself and stop overheating your brain immediately.

 

[Arbiter]

grew into a game 2 years later

It's surprising that Black Isle needed 2 years to build a game with an existing engine. PST is not a particularly big game. Perhaps IE was unfinished when development started or it is difficult to work with.

 

[Cross]

grew into a game 2 years later

It's surprising that Black Isle needed 2 years to build a game with an existing engine. PST is not a particularly big game. Perhaps IE was unfinished when development started or it is difficult to work with.

Development of PS:T was paused or slowed down while they worked on Fallout 2.

And the IE engine was unfinished when they started developing PS:T, which can't have made development any easier.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

According to Mobygames, the release date of Final Fantasy VII in the United States was August 31 1997, while Planescape: Torment released on December 10 1999, i.e. after two full years had passed. Meanwhile, Fallout 2 was under development and released on October 29 1998, with several Planescape staff assisting, including Chris Avellone.

Anyway, the argument about the debt owed by Planescape: Torment to FF7 has been ongoing since 2000: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/c/TsooR8Y28KE/m/epIHBB2pKOkJ.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Imagine an alternate history: Condor fails to find a publisher for their turn based version of Diablo and BioWare goes out of business after failure of Shattered Steel.

Here's how I imagine that timeline:
- After failures of Battlespire and Redguard Bethesda abandons Elder Scrolls, drops any pretense of RPG games and focuses again on sports and shooter genres. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are never released. Neither is FNV.

Bethesda would've continued down the line of Morrowind anyways. Nothing about any of Todd's emails or anyone else at bethesda ever accounted for BG1+2 as they were already planning Morrowind after Battlespire anyways and would've likely continued in their attempt to emulate Ultima. Todd probably would've still gotten the lead and we'd probably still have Morrowind as it is today. Whether or not it would save Bethesda is another question. However, it's questionable as to whether or not BG1+2/Diablo really had an influence on that.

- Interplay still fails
- Bethesda has no interest in dormant Fallout franchise. The IP is instead purchased by Troika. The company stays in business as a niche developer of old school games.

There still would've been some D&D games in spite of no infinity engine. It would probably be on some souped up version of the Fallout engine. We'd still have Arcanum, though lucky for us, no real time combat so we get a fleshed out turn-based combat system instead of the half-and-half mess we have now. If Bethesda became as big as it was today, regardless of whether or not Diablo or BG1+2 existed, having played the older games, they'd probably still be interested in it.

- Romances in games never become mainstream. Casualization of games happens at a much slower pace. PC game industry resists consolization longer, but the mobile game revolution is inevitable and results in predatory monetization schemes that are also adopted by PC industry

Romances were already in JRPGs. Final Fantasy 7 and 8 had them as part of the main plotline. JRPGs were already casualized to the max with the popular final fantasy "games" and pokemon.

- An AAA BG3 never happens, but Troika continues to pump out low budget DnD games
- DnD ruleset is not influenced by MMOs and stays close to 2.0 revision
- With no BioWare to copy, CDP develops shooters instead of action RPGs. Cyberpunk: Street Warrior series competes with Call of Duty

Sounds good to me. Especially a continual stream of low budget D&D games. We'd probably still have Knights of the Chalice as well. Also, Fallout 1 preceded Baldur's Gate and was pretty big with Fallout 2 released the same year, so the storyfagging would more likely follow FO1+2's direction rather than BG1. Keep in mind that BG1+2 were compared to Fallout by game journos at the time. Everquest would've probably still done well anyways. Deus Ex would have come out anyways and done quite well (it started development before BG1 came out). Storyfagging would then be more along the DEUS EX emulation rather than Bioware emulation.

 

[Alienman]

Polish American relations would be poor and bordering on war - threatening to throw Europe into another senseless world war since the important diplomatic meeting where Witcher 2 was gifted to Obama never took place.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

No Diablo means we don't have that disgusting skill tree leveling system in every goddamn game, so that's a win. No BG means no IE games which means no isometric RPGs (Fallouts were sales busts). Genre dead. That probably means we get a stronger push for FPS-style RPGs, dumbed down 3D action-ish RPGs, or "RPG Elements". It also likely means more attempts by western devs to copy japan. Mixed bag.

It also probably means the MMO market takes off sooner and might even kill the single player market due to lack of options, as everyone thought it was poised to do. Not good.

PST is western final fantasy, a semi interactive book.

I've pointed this out many times before, but everyone was trying to copy Final Fantasy 7's success. That game was deeply embarrassing to western devs; it sold more copies than anyone even thought an RPG *could* sell.

KotOR is the western answer to FF7. A streamlined, linear talky-talky game with perfunctory combat that focuses entirely on Cinematic Presentation. That was the innovation of FF7 that no one but Bioware seemed to understand. Note that KotOR was the game that finally put JRPGs on the back foot and allowed CRPGs to take over consoles.

 

[Arbiter]

No BG means no IE games which means no isometric RPGs

There were earlier top down RPGs, for example Dark Sun.

(Fallouts were sales busts).

If so, why did Interplay invest in Fallout 2, Tactics and BOS? Why did Bethesda purchase Fallout IP for several million USD?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Afaik fo1 & 2 sold very well. Interplay went under despite how well their RPGs were selling, not because of them. They likely would have continued to exist if they axed the other parts of the company instead.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

There were earlier top down RPGs, for example Dark Sun.

Dark Sun was a death knell for SSI. Fallout 2 sold a bit over 100k copies. That was considered "good". Meanwhile Baldur's gate sold over a million. Baldur's Gate was seen as the second coming of the Gold Box (whether you agree or disagree, that was the hype at the time). No BG=no IWD, no PST, likely no Arcanum or ToEE. All those games were funded because of BG's numbers, not Fallout numbers.

Bioware makes FPS games for EA instead. Fallout devs end up at Ion Storm or making Deus Ex knockoffs. No Diablo *also* means no Divine Divinity, which means no isometric renaissance games like Div:OS or Pillars.

Without the success of BG, no chance of greenlighting all of these games. Possible some other company would have pitched a Gold Box style revival but who knows. At the time, everyone else was pushing 3D (Descent to Undermountain, Thunderscape, etc.)

 

[rusty_shackleford]

No Diablo *also* means no Divine Divinity,

Highly debatable.
Swen never set out to make a game inspired by Diablo, he was forced to by his publisher. They were convinced a turn-based game wouldn't sell. For all we know, Swen could have had massive Original Sin-tier success right off the bat.

His blog is actually a rare insight into the dev world from a non-indie perspective btw, it's a shame he stopped updating it. Doesn't even seem to be functional anymore, going to email him about it...
https://web.archive.org/web/20221202204650/http://www.lar.net/

 

[Fowyr]

Anyway, the argument about the debt owed by Planescape: Torment to FF7 has been ongoing since 2000: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/c/TsooR8Y28KE/m/epIHBB2pKOkJ.

amnesia

I read Denning's Pages of Pain probably 15 years ago and my memory is bad, but isn't Zombie was amnesiac as well? He was scarred and summoned Lady of Pain by reciting Swinburne's poem. The book was released in December, 1997.

 

[luj1]

No Diablo *also* means no Divine Divinity, which means no isometric renaissance games like Div:OS or Pillars.

Calling these games 'renaissance' is like calling donkey shit caviar.

 

[Cross]

There were earlier top down RPGs, for example Dark Sun.

Dark Sun was a death knell for SSI. Fallout 2 sold a bit over 100k copies. That was considered "good". Meanwhile Baldur's gate sold over a million. Baldur's Gate was seen as the second coming of the Gold Box (whether you agree or disagree, that was the hype at the time). No BG=no IWD, no PST, likely no Arcanum or ToEE. All those games were funded because of BG's numbers, not Fallout numbers.

Bioware makes FPS games for EA instead. Fallout devs end up at Ion Storm or making Deus Ex knockoffs. No Diablo *also* means no Divine Divinity, which means no isometric renaissance games like Div:OS or Pillars.

Without the success of BG, no chance of greenlighting all of these games. Possible some other company would have pitched a Gold Box style revival but who knows. At the time, everyone else was pushing 3D (Descent to Undermountain, Thunderscape, etc.)

Your alternate RPG timeline has a few problems. Troika was founded almost a year before Baldur's Gate was released. Arcanum was already in development by then. It was apparently a commercial success, which would explain how Troika could continue to develop 2 more RPGs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura

The game proved a commercial success for Troika following its release, selling over 200,000 copies and generating revenue of over US$8.8 million, being deemed the fourth best-seller for video games within the period of its launch by NPD Intelect.

Interplay had already secured the D&D license before BioWare came along, so they were going to publish D&D-based games regardless. Baldur's Gate doesn't seem to have had any meaningful influence on what Troika, Sir-Tech, New World Computing and Bethesda were doing so the RPG scene from the late 90's/early 2000's would have looked much the same. The main question is what Interplay would have done absent BioWare's Infinity Engine game. Maybe they would have made turn-based D&D RPGs using the Fallout engine, or some other engine. Or maybe D&D-themed hack-and-slash games. They essentially ended up doing that with the Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance games.

Anyway, the argument about the debt owed by Planescape: Torment to FF7 has been ongoing since 2000: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/c/TsooR8Y28KE/m/epIHBB2pKOkJ.

amnesia

I read Denning's Pages of Pain probably 15 years ago and my memory is bad, but isn't Zombie was amnesiac as well? He was scarred and summoned Lady of Pain by reciting Swinburne's poem. The book was released in December, 1997.

The Amber series, which I think Avellone mentioned as an inspiration, has a protagonist who has been alive for centuries and who wakes up with amnesia, and it's set in a multiverse.

Though it's a mostly superficial comparison. Amnesia is a common trope, but what sets Torment apart from other amnesia stories is that there is no 'aha' moment where the protagonist regains their true identity and the plot kicks into high gear. Instead, it uses the blank slate nature inherent to RPG protagonists to let you build a new identity, which is a storytelling method only possible in a video game.

Although I'm sure rusty_shackleford will be here any moment now to tell us that PS:T actually ripped off FF7, since its protagonist also starts the game with a form of amnesia.