Open endedness does not mean a good RPG.

odorf sniggab · Oct 22, 2005

An open ended enviroment doesn't make a great RPG. Besides, any game that isn't a MMORPG has an ending. Oblivion's core quest is only 20 hours long. That is if you don't decide to go picking mushrooms for 30 hours of your gaming time in Oblivion you can beat it in 20 hours. So the open ended nature of the game is really just an illusion. If you break it down the game is linear just like any other RPG. Great puzzle solving, well crafted dungeons, a bevy of hidden secrets to discover and unlock and a good range of character abilities make a good RPG. So what if it's open ended if all you can do with that time is kill more monsters and talk to more NPCs.

Human Shield · Oct 22, 2005

Difference between side-fluff and a dynamic world.

Get educated.

odorf sniggab · Oct 22, 2005

Human Shield said:
Difference between side-fluff and a dynamic world.

Get educated.

Dynamic world is still fluff is the game is lacking the things I mentioned.

Get bent.

Micmu · Oct 22, 2005

...is linear just like any other RPG...

odorf sniggab · Oct 22, 2005

micmu said:
...is linear just like any other RPG...

Click to expand...

Not sure why you quoted that but yes EVERY rpg is linear. If you don't do the main quests you don't get closer to the ending of the game. LINEAR. They haven't made a RPG yet where you don't have to follow a core quest path to complete the game, LINNNEEEAARRRRRRR.

Tintin · Oct 22, 2005

I predict 1000 screams of FALLOUT!

Micmu · Oct 22, 2005

Not sure why you quoted that but yes EVERY rpg is linear. If you don't do the main quests you don't get closer to the ending of the game. LINEAR. They haven't made a RPG yet where you don't have to follow a core quest path to complete the game, LINNNEEEAARRRRRRR.

If you think so, a lot of RPGs offer you several paths and you can choose your side. What are you looking for is LARP.

Psilon · Oct 22, 2005

Tintin said:
I predict 1000 screams of FALLOUT!

Why? Geneforge 1 has even less in the way of victory prerequisites.

Chefe · Oct 22, 2005

I LUB OBLIBION THREADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111oneoneone

And Micmu... you silly fool. There are no spears in Oblivion! Haw!

Vault Dweller · Oct 22, 2005

odorf sniggab said:
An open ended enviroment doesn't make a great RPG. Besides, any game that isn't a MMORPG has an ending.

It's been awhile since someone that clueless has visited us.

Oblivion's core quest is only 20 hours long. That is if you don't decide to go picking mushrooms for 30 hours of your gaming time in Oblivion you can beat it in 20 hours. So the open ended nature of the game is really just an illusion. If you break it down the game is linear just like any other RPG.

Logical conclusion: Oblivion is a linear RPG, not all RPGs are linear.

Great puzzle solving, well crafted dungeons, a bevy of hidden secrets to discover and unlock and a good range of character abilities make a good RPG.

Uh, no, but thanks for playing.

So what if it's open ended if all you can do with that time is kill more monsters and talk to more NPCs.

A better question would be "Since I have no idea what I'm talking about, can someone tell me about non-linearity and open-endedness?"

Not sure why you quoted that but yes EVERY rpg is linear

How about "every RPGs I've played is linear"? Come on, work with me, kid, I'm trying to help you.

If you don't do the main quests you don't get closer to the ending of the game. LINEAR

I'm beginning to suspect that you are not very bright.

They haven't made a RPG yet where you don't have to follow a core quest path to complete the game, LINNNEEEAARRRRRRR.

Definitely stupid.

odorf sniggab · Oct 23, 2005

Vault Dweller, helping to prove with his last post that this forum is overrun by sociopaths. Not only did you not prove I'm clueless but you didn't prove yourself to be any less clueless. Show me one RPG that doesn't have an ending. Then, show me one RPG that doesn't have a core quest path to follow to reach that ending. You can have all the peripherals you want in an RPG, but that doesn't make it any less linear as far as the main story.

Then prove to me how lack of puzzle solving hidden secrets and character abilities are a GOOD thing in an RPG. Explain why it is fun to do mostly nothing in those hardcore RPGs but kill monsters and talk to NPCs?

Finally, prove to me why it makes you a better person to troll these forums and call people clueless and stupid whom you never even met.

Now go home and get your fucking shinebox!

odorf sniggab · Oct 23, 2005

Tintin heh. The Fallout shrine lol.

Naked_Lunch · Oct 23, 2005

Darklands.

Chefe · Oct 23, 2005

odorf = ExMonk

?

kingcomrade · Oct 23, 2005

I'm ignorant too.

Someone who is super smart explain Fallout's nonlinearity?

Pretty much every area that isn't necropolis, the mutant base, or the cathedral is side fluff that exists solely to get your character XP/create immershun. You don't really have to go to any of it.

Is it just becuase you can go anywhere in any order? Then why does it all not count as side-fluff, as the quests almost all the towns don't interact. Just little things like Doc Morbid or the water theft. Is it just an illusion of nonlinearity?

By the way, I'd like a response, not arrogant huffing from VD.

Vault Dweller · Oct 23, 2005

odorf sniggab said:
Vault Dweller, helping to prove with his last post that this forum is overrun by sociopaths.

Glad I could be of help!

Not only did you not prove I'm clueless...

You did a fine job there all by yourself there, buddy. It was a masterpiece.

... but you didn't prove yourself to be any less clueless.

Was I supposed to? I didn't know. I guess if tomorrow someone comes and claims that the Earth is actually flat, I'm supposed to prove him wrong? Can't I just call him a moron and move on?

Show me one RPG that doesn't have an ending.

[clue] You are confusing open-ended with endless. [/clue] Have you ever heard about open-ended movies? Do you think they never end? :shock:

Then, show me one RPG that doesn't have a core quest path to follow to reach that ending.

Do you even understand that concept of linearity? Anyway, try Fallout, Geneforge, Prelude, Darklands, the first parts of the Gothic games, etc. There was a good discussion on linearity, anybody got a link handy?

Then prove to me how lack of puzzle solving hidden secrets and character abilities are a GOOD thing in an RPG. Explain why it is fun to do mostly nothing in those hardcore RPGs but kill monsters and talk to NPCs?

That's neither what you said, nor what I said, so what's the point?

Finally, prove to me why it makes you a better person to troll these forums and call people clueless and stupid whom you never even met.

You post something stupid on a forum, then surprised when people call you stupid, and then claim that people should meet you first and THEN call you stupid? You live in a world of twisted logic, my friend. Had you asked a question, like a good noob should, it would have been answered in a very polite and informative manner. Instead you started making claims pretending that you actually know what you are talking about - not the best way to make new friends and influence people.

Vault Dweller · Oct 23, 2005

kingcomrade said:
I'm ignorant too.

Someone who is super smart explain Fallout's nonlinearity?

I'm not super smart, but I'll try to come up with something while we are waiting for the super smart ones to join.

Is it just becuase you can go anywhere in any order?

That's the one.

Then why does it all not count as side-fluff, as the quests almost all the towns don't interact. Just little things like Doc Morbid or the water theft. Is it just an illusion of nonlinearity?

Side quests give an illusion of non-linearity (see BG2, KOTOR). Main quest points that could be done in any order or skipped give true non-linearity.

By the way, I'd like a response, not arrogant huffing from VD.

Have I ever been anything less than a well-mannered gentleman with you? :lol:

Zomg · Oct 23, 2005

Has it come up before that your "quote a line, reply a line" style of discussion is uselessly awful? It encourages a treacly preciousness and it's so overt that it seems like a Gromnir-esque posting gimmick. Have you thought about changing it?

kingcomrade · Oct 23, 2005

So, it's that you can do the final 2 quests in any order that you like? Or that you can do all of these side quests at any point of the game, instead of, like, only at the end of a game (Final Fantasy style)(or any other point along the storyline, but if you don't do it you lose the opportunity)?

Section8 · Oct 23, 2005

Pretty much every area that isn't necropolis, the mutant base, or the cathedral is side fluff that exists solely to get your character XP/create immershun. You don't really have to go to any of it.

Not true, they all contribute to the ending, and...

Is it just becuase you can go anywhere in any order? Then why does it all not count as side-fluff, as the quests almost all the towns don't interact. Just little things like Doc Morbid or the water theft. Is it just an illusion of nonlinearity?

It's the real deal. Without experiencing the "fluff" the player must rely on metagaming or blind luck to stumble across the required plot elements/locations. And even then, they're going to be a pissweak fucking Pleasantville type, because they haven't had a chance to learn and benefit from the experiences of the wasteland.

It's not entirely non-linear, but it goes close.

Of course, if a sandbox game like the ES games built on the strengths of free form gaming, then they wouldn't serve up a pissweak "main plot" for the player to grudgingly follow. Then they'd be closer to non-linear too.

Tintin · Oct 23, 2005

Zomg said:
Has it come up before that your "quote a line, reply a line" style of discussion is uselessly awful? It encourages a treacly preciousness and it's so overt that it seems like a Gromnir-esque posting gimmick. Have you thought about changing it?

Well, it's better than answering to a whole paragraph or arguments with a single line which only answers one point (HMM) or even stupider, a picture (HMM).

Vault Dweller · Oct 23, 2005

Zomg said:
Has it come up before that your "quote a line, reply a line" style of discussion is uselessly awful? It encourages a treacly preciousness and it's so overt that it seems like a Gromnir-esque posting gimmick. Have you thought about changing it?

No, I like it. It encourages people to think about every fucking sentence and write less generic bullshit*

*patent pending

kingcomrade said:
So, it's that you can do the final 2 quests in any order that you like?

Not the final two. There are no set points with cutscenes that introduce new goals and push the plot like in BG2. You may go to Vault 15 where the game actually sends you or you may decide to explore and go straight to Junktown and Hub. You may stop in Shady Sands or continue travelling. Etc

kingcomrade · Oct 23, 2005

So...
you are dropped into the world and there is stuff that you can do, nobody is forcing you to do any of it? (with little exceptions like Fallout's first quest)
Like, a sandbox game but someone already built everything for you to play around in?

Well, the way I play Fallout, it definitely seems pretty linear. You head towards Vault 15, Shady Sands is in the way. That's where you get directions to the Junktown. You go to V15 and there's nothing there but an SMG and a jacket, so you go check out Junktown, where you get directions to Hub...etc.

Maybe that's it. In, say FF games, you're shuffled along a straight course. All of the decisions about where to go next, except maybe for the world map parts of the game, are decided for you and to get there you just go to the right side of the screen. Now, I haven't played Morrowind, never beat Baldur's Gate or NWN (I really don't like D&D mechanics or setting) and don't really remember them, so I don't know how they compare.

So, just by the way, what are Final Fantasy games? Puzzle games with a storyline?

Naked_Lunch · Oct 23, 2005

You don't have to go to Vault 15, and you can discover the Hub on your own.

Doppelganger · Oct 23, 2005

Tintin said:
Well, it's better than answering to a whole paragraph or arguments with a single line which only answers one point (HMM) or even stupider, a picture (HMM).

Then allow me to oblige:

Open endedness does not mean a good RPG.

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