Religion in CRPGs

Naked_Lunch · Oct 16, 2005

More often than not, religion in CRPGs is basically casting healing spells and buffs, really. Take Neverwinter Nights, which allowed you to name your own deity! How cool and innovative! Too bad it had no fucking effect whatsoever, you still had to play as the cleric template, and religion basically ceased to exist after that little dialog box.

What bothers me is that Religion is such a great idea and should be utilized way more often. Praying at shrines is cool, but what about actively trying to convert people to the faith? If you worship a certain God, you should get stat or skill bonuses and maybe an extra spell or two, even inf you're not a spellcaster. Gothic II did this, by allowing you to give offerings to Innos and in return you could get additional learning points or permanent stat boosts. But that's only one God, out of the 3 I believe.

Darklands is probably the only game I know that did this really, really well. Though I believe it only allowed you to be Christian, it still worked perfectly. They must've had over 100 saints or so that could really make the difference. If you needed to hide quickly, you could pray to a Saint for a distraction, and based on your Faith stat (And how often you went to church) you'd be helped out. I also believe that if you weren't a good person, but still tried to pray to the Saints, you'd get a little help. Like fighting 3 rogues instead of 4, thus urging you to pray more often.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Twinfalls · Oct 16, 2005

Whilst gods being real in games and giving you powers and stuff is cool, I'd like for once to see a game in which religion plays a role more approximating to reality. That is, the in-game religion serves as a means of power and control, for a privileged minority who extract and maintain wealth from the people using fear and indoctrination, and as a distraction from pursuing collective political action.

Thus might serious moral decisons and implications be generated for the player who chooses to seek power from that path, or who is naive about the reality to begin with.

Drakron · Oct 16, 2005

The problem is that if you have clerics you really cannot give everyone access to the divine.

I agree its not much used most of the time and its a pity but I think its more with the lack of time to implement quests for a diverse pantheon that anything else.

Trash · Oct 16, 2005

Religion in games will always be a tricky thing, just because it's, well, religion. Still, like many other things it can be cool when implemented well. Otherwise it could be a little frightening (like those jihadi fps shooters, they are a neat view from a fanatics eye)

Darklands did it real well, though the sheer number of saints could be a bit overwhelming. Another game that has fun religion elements was medieval total war. I always loved to send a crusade into Germany or to let the inquisition wreak havoc in my adverseries lands.

Greatatlantic · Oct 16, 2005

I'm with you. Religion is such a large part of the human experience, that the minor role its played in games so far seems rather strange. And that role tends to be fairly predictable. Make in offering, and get a stat bonus. Heck, Arcanum had a giant network of this going on. It would be nice if joining a religion would give you an instant network of allies, but then close a lot of doors. Sort of like the factions in Torment. And more than that, joining a faction should be because the player can identify with their philosophy or beliefs.

Naked_Lunch · Oct 16, 2005

Twinfalls said:
Whilst gods being real in games and giving you powers and stuff is cool, I'd like for once to see a game in which religion plays a role more approximating to reality. That is, the in-game religion serves as a means of power and control, for a privileged minority who extract and maintain wealth from the people using fear and indoctrination, and as a distraction from pursuing collective political action.

Thus might serious moral decisons and implications be generated for the player who chooses to seek power from that path, or who is naive about the reality to begin with.

Ultima VII's plot centered around a new religious group called The Fellowship that was created in order to serve the whim of the Guardian and for the benefit of its (The Fellowship's, not the Guardian's) three heads (Batlin, Elizebeth, and Abraham). That is like what you described.

Speaking of which, VD: Do you have any plans for a religion or faith-system in your game?

Vault Dweller · Oct 16, 2005

Naked_Lunch said:
Speaking of which, VD: Do you have any plans for a religion or faith-system in your game?

Yes. That's a part of the story. Without spoiling anything, one of the 3 factions wants to establish a religion and worship a certain entity, another faction wants to destroy the religion and the entity. It's a long story. Both pros and cons for every choice, including the neutral one, are presented to the player.

Naked_Lunch · Oct 16, 2005

If you do join up with the religious faction, are you able to go around and preach and try to convert or even gain a party of followers if you're charismatic enough (That is, if the option is included in the game. I have no idea what's in the game so I'm just taking stabs)?

Vault Dweller · Oct 16, 2005

It really is a long story. Each choice matters a lot, and the game responds to it. You won't be able to preach, and you won't be able to convert/gain followers, you get something else instead (no, not an item, gameplay effects and reaction). I don't think you would be disappointed.

Naked_Lunch · Oct 16, 2005

Alright, thanks for the info on that. It's not a make-or-break thing, just something I was curious about.

Fodel · Oct 16, 2005

Icewind Dale 2, not a bad crpg, is the better D&D game in roleplay religion, there are several quests/options/dialogs differents for differents clerics, and the ending changes absolutely being a cleric of Ilmater or Bane.

Balor · Oct 16, 2005

Well, since I'm follower of Path of Left Hand, playing religions type does not appeal me to the slightest...

At least, as much as playing a coprophile sim.
So, I'd vote "Don't care a shit"...

I kinda liked "Kult", though.
"Religion is death and death to religion!"

Shagnak · Oct 16, 2005

Balor said:
Well, since I'm follower of Path of Left Hand...

I'm a follower of the Path of Wavey Hand.
That's where you wave your hands around in the air and say "Fucked if I know!".

Balor · Oct 16, 2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path

Shagnak · Oct 16, 2005

Oh, Balor, I am very familiar with what the Left Hand Path is.
My statement was more a quip about my attitude towards religion (as in, I don't really have a solid position one way or another). Plus I was trying to be funneh

Spazmo · Oct 16, 2005

I try to stick to the look-mom, no-hands path, at least until I fall over and scrape my knee.

Kraszu · Oct 16, 2005

I'm with you. Religion is such a large part of the human experience, that the minor role its played in games so far seems rather strange.

Part of human expirance? You can like cast fireball afet prey? I like religion in game in more realistic maner, someting not sure that's actually part of politics. Whit some ppl who belive it and try to do good (in they anderstending of that word), and manipulators. Intresting plot could be based on that.

Balor · Oct 16, 2005

Well, just as with Atheism, LHP does not deny existance of gods outright.
Yet...

Academician Prokhor Zakharov said:
Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven to exist, therefore, he must exist.

I love Alpha Centauri and it's tech quotes!

Kraszu · Oct 16, 2005

I don't say that existing not existing of God is a fact, but in real world there is no materialistic "bonuses" for prayers.

Throught geting ability to cast spell would not prove god's existence, it could be faith alone that makes it posibole. - there could be belivers in power of faith that would not belive in any God it could also be part of intresting world. But i would prefer to play in the first now.

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven to exist, therefore, he must exist.

I am actually in discussion about that, but i can't really talk about it on this forum becose of my poor english.

I have no relgion expirance, atheism is not expirance.

Proweler · Oct 17, 2005

Aslong as they don't put conservative christian whitewash all over it,it I'm happy.

Balor said:
Well, just as with Atheism, LHP does not deny existance of gods outright.
Yet...

Academician Prokhor Zakharov said:

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven to exist, therefore, he must exist.

Click to expand...

I love Alpha Centauri and it's tech quotes!

You make this place feel like home.

TheGreatGodPan · Oct 17, 2005

Balor, get a dictionary. Read the definition for "agnostic". Then read that of "atheist". Then you can start commenting on religion again.

It seems like there are a lot of Russian RPG fans these days. The old Orthodox church would be familiar enough to most players, but still have a hint of the unusual. I heard that the makers of Darklands were planning on making a sequel set in Russia, and I think that would be cool. They could even put in both Andrei Rublev and Alexander Nevsky as sub-plots within the game. Also, you could play as a priest without that silly Catholic restriction on getting married and having kids (I think). But for the ultimate RPG with religion, they need to use Robert Howard's Solomon Kane.

Atrokkus · Oct 17, 2005

First, let's differentiate fictional and documentary games. If we are talking about fictional, then there is NO restriction to religious aspect, even though in real life gods are nonexistant.

I am an atheist in real life. I don't hate religions, no, I respect most of them (my mother was buried in Islamic way, while my father - in Christian), I'm tolerant, as they say.

But I do believe in, say, fantasy pantheon, because I *know* they exist inside the fantasy setting. And I will gladly say "thank Mystra", instead of "thank God" even in real life. So, playing a cleric in DnD campaign is more than interesting for me, despite me being an atheist in real life, so I don't really understand your position, Balor.

Kraszu · Oct 17, 2005

I was talking only about my preferences i think it is more intresting. Maybe add relgion expirance in character creating, rp Palladyn whit some visions could be intresting.

Twinfalls · Oct 17, 2005

Andrei Rublev is a pretty amazing movie, saw it at a theatre a few months ago. Heavy going but much of it is stunning.

Section8 · Oct 17, 2005

I'd say there's two distinct themes here to be discussed. Religion as an intangible faith, and religion with divine response.

I think religion as it relates to faith, is a great theme because it's universal, divisive, and unable to be "proven" right or wrong. It's also fairly effortlessly integrated into other themes, such as power and conflict. But most importantly it's the perfect way to blur the line between good and evil.

But as it has been said, I'd like to see gameplay features that revolve around religion rather than just themes. It could be something as simple as persuading NPCs according to a common belief or something as complex as being able to issue edicts of varying degrees as you rise through the ranks of <church guild>, and literally changing entire dynamics of the game world. That to me, would be a far more compelling reason to play a freeform sandbox game than tacking on "t3h ep1c stoyrline!!"

It would be nice, just once, to see a player character increase in political power, rather than just personal prowess as they progress through levels and guild ranks.

The other issue, is that of religion where gods are tangible and actually use their divine influence in noticeable ways. I think this, at its most basic offers another channel for "questing" with rewards a human employer couldn't give. But once again, I'd also like to see this explored with more complexity.

Religion in CRPGs

Erudite

Erudite

Arcane

Pointing and laughing.

Erudite

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Erudite

Novice

Arcane

Shagadelic

Arcane

Shagadelic

Erudite

Prophet

Arcane

Prophet

Scholar

Arbiter

Erudite

Prophet

Erudite

Cipher