I fully understand that some people, maybe most people, want the generic Combat, Stealth and Magic Guilds with more detail, but the detail in the religious factions in Daggerfall were often more detailed than the Mage or Thieves Guild, and the Military Orders were more detailed than the Fighters Guild.
I never expected Oblivion to do worse than Morrowind in any way, I expected it to be a major return to Daggerfall, with many homages to Arena, not a step back in the design of the world's culture.
(Selbeth_The_Winged_One @ Sep 11 2005, 10:51 AM)
Not really, 5 joinable factions, six if you count the "speciel" Blades is already far more than most RPGs offer, most RPGs don't have joinable factions at all unless they are ones you need to join for plot reasons.
Oblivion compares well to Gothic 2 (and probably 3), The Witcher might be very complex but it's based on a novel and you play the novel's character, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic isn't even an RPG. Ubisoft ditched the RPG for a Source engined fantasy Half Life 2 with just three classes. Oblivion is still the most complex and the largest of next gen CRPGs. I'll give it credit for that.
Comparing Oblivion with older Elder Scrolls games is where it's lacking. It was the only RPG with complex faction politics allowing you to "live another life" and not just play a party based "save the world" scenario.
188.gif Keep up the "bad work" dissing old time TES and we'll see a future installment with one faction (Murderer's Guild), one weapon skill (Axe) and a Main Quest of one half hour where you're destined to kill every harmless NPC, burn down every Temple, Inn and House in the sole city while exploring 2000 dungeons filled with vampire clans.
You'll then become the head of the Chain Gang in the Imperial Dungeons, where you end the game rather then begin, unless you become the vampire clan lord who gets tossed out in the sun by a follower intent on gaining control. Perhaps it will be multiplayer without coop! I'm sure it would sell enough copies to rival the best of the worst from Rockstar. 188.gif
Though Arena used temples as generic locations for services and as places involved in minor escort NPC quests, Daggerfall changed that and unless the Nine Divines are a major part of the main quest, then I don't see any design reasons for their being left out, just development cycle missteps in utilizing time on mounted combat that didn't make it in to begin with.
(Pliskin @ Sep 11 2005, 04:57 PM)
I guess it could also be possible that it is more like a religion and less like a faction this time around. Maybe you can run a couple of errands, donate money, and visit whenever you want but not actually join or hold any kind of rank in the church.
As a design decision, I think becoming the head of a faction is a bit dodgy. The adventurer type wouldn't even join the Benefices, Houses, Temples or Imperial Cult with the intention of becoming the head of the religion. In Morrowind, they stressed that you weren't the type to join the clerical ranks but you could join as a layman.
It was great to roleplay as a wandering Healer, Monk or Pilgrim (or my custom Courtesan of Dibella). Not every faction should be about gaining power and becoming the high mucky muck leader. If the Nine Divines has a major layman's route to modest influence and roleplaying service, then that will be okay, but it sounds like it's not just less than Daggerfall (which I expected) but less than Morrowind.
I'd love to see a mod where the head of the Mages Guild must do more paperwork and research with less adventuring, the head of the Arena Guild gets involved in boring marketing, and the head of the Fighters balances the books vis a vis rats killed, income earned and the costs of training and equipment. I never even wanted to become the head of the Mages Guild in Morrowind and that guy was incompetent.
Yes, TES is an action RPG, and combat, dungeon crawling and getting treasure is at the core of an RPG, but what separates a generic RPG from a complex RPG are the choices and the background of the world. The Nine Divines is important to the lore, but I just don't understand how even people who only know Morrowind can say that it's just about being a backdrop to support the suspension of disbelief.
(Pilaf @ Sep 11 2005, 01:21 PM)
In the latest interview, the Devs said it was a matter of the Storyline.. the Empire is changing and since you're on Cyrodill and the Legions and Church of Nine Divines is heavily involved in the MQ, joining them would be sort of against the storyline. It would have been like being an Ordinator in Morrowind, a game where the Temple was basically destroyed by the end of the Expansions.
I believe the Empire, and the Nine Divines religion is gonna go through some changes during and after this game, in the same way the Temple went through some changes in Morrowind. Wulf in Morrowind gave some foreshadowing when he said he believes the Empire had a good run, but maybe it's time for something new.
I don't buy the Ordinator example. I can only see the Legions as not joinable since the nobles are positioning themselves for the change and the Legions, when they aren't fighting to keep the Daedra at bay, are aligning with different cities in a way similar to the fall of the Roman Empire.
I do think that the only possible storyline reason to leave out the Nine Divines as a joinable faction is that the merger created by the Empire won't hold past the end of the Empire, but that actually creates possibilities for roleplaying. The various Benefices, Houses and Temples weren't at each other's throats in Daggerfall, but they were competitors and you'd get peasants commenting on that when asked "what is the house of Dibella" etc.
Perhaps they'll allow enough quests to make it a complete part of the world but feel that becoming the head of the faction isn't warranted. I agree that becoming the head of the Nine Divines isn't warranted, but being a part of the downfall of the Imperial syncretism that brought the Eight Divines together with the cult of Tiber Septim would be a fun roleplaying experience.
Thanks for voting in the poll, guys and gals. Let me add something that redwoodtreesprite pointed out this morning when we discussed the changes. If there's no animation for striking with a staff or stabbing with a spear, then it will be more difficult to mod it with the new physics. It will be easier to mod a joinable Nine Divines than it will be to correct other omissions like no melee non-wizard staff, mounted combat or throwing weapons or crossbows.
Let's hope that these are all considered for the first expansion that takes place after the gates to Oblivion are closed. One problem with the Tribunal expansion is that if one restarted the game, or just got the GOTY edition (as some of my friends did), the DB assassins showed up immediately instead of the storyline beginning once one had completed the main quest. An expansion that only takes place once the MQ is done would be a fitting way to introduce changes to Tamriel religion.
If too many changes are made to the Aedra and Tamriel religion, the world of Nirn couldn't hold, because the Aedra's fate is tied to the earth bones and they can die, unlike the Daedra. I wonder how this fits into other rumours that the next TES game won't be set in Tamriel? Do they want to ditch the lore and environment they inherited from the Arena and Daggerfall devs and create their own world? I'd thought that rumuor meant just the possibility of a game set in Mysterious Akavir.
We'll see, I'll remain hopeful, but I'm not as optimistic as I was a few months ago. I should have taken the devs at their enigmatic sidestepping word and not just figured.
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