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Next-gen RPGs: People don't want riddles and reading.

Micmu

Magister
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
6,163
Location
ALIEN BASE-3
Some of you might want to know, what Bethesda has to say about journals, directions and reading in future RPGs.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=149722&st=0
It's utterly long, just read answer to question 6 - the most dumb one.
Smells like a mission-objective (a.k.a. auto-walkthrough) based gameplay to me.

This game will probably disappoint FPS fans (you can't compete with fancy graphics there - not if it's not pure killing) and RPG fans as well (self-explanatory). And horribly.

Looks like the fate of Fallout has been sealed.
 

MrSmileyFaceDude

Bethesda Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
716
Yep, ignore the other 23 questions, and only read the third sentence of question #6. Make sure you also ignore the last two sentences of question #6. Bear in mind as well all of your worst possible assumptions about glowing auras, Crazy Taxi style floating arrows and huge radar screens.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Quest indicator is helping you to role playing, you can't role play character that is able to find staff without it, if you personally don't have skill to do so. Oblivion is going to push rpg to next lvl, or should i say next genration. Why should you put dialogues where npc tell you direction when you can just look at quest indicator?

I like the all guild freedom also i alweys wanted in rpg to be able to join ku klux klan, and afroamerican's frendship organisation whit one character. Crpg of past didn't allow that level of freeeeeedom.
 

Sarvis

Erudite
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
5,050
Location
Buffalo, NY
That doesn't really sound like anything new. DS2 marks quest locations on the map for instance. I'm sure I've also seen it done in several other games, can't remember what ones though.
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,852
Location
Lulea, Sweden
I wonder how people who want a quest indicator get themself trough life? they probably need unpassable obstacles like forests too so they won't get lost.

Next step in games is to have ALL dialogue colorcoded so everyone can know what is an insult/quest/praise as that is beyond the intellectual capacity of the supposed average gamer.
 

Sarvis

Erudite
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
5,050
Location
Buffalo, NY
kris said:
I wonder how people who want a quest indicator get themself trough life? they probably need unpassable obstacles like forests too so they won't get lost.

Next step in games is to have ALL dialogue colorcoded so everyone can know what is an insult/quest/praise as that is beyond the intellectual capacity of the supposed average gamer.

Umm... mostly people ask for directions. There's entire websites devoted to it like <a href="http://www.mapquest.com">Mapquest</a>. It even puts a star on a map for you.

If anything this makes games MORE realistic, because it's just like having mapquest! :P

And when was the last time you had to search an entire city for someone? Whenever I need to find someone I pretty much know where to find them, like in their office or at their house.
 

Spazmo

Erudite
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
Messages
5,752
Location
Monkey Island
This is really a nonissue. There's much, much better things to complain about in Oblivion than this. Besides, it's pretty much true: in a gameworld that was as bloated and bland as Morrowind's (and as Oblivion's may well be) where it was pretty much impossible to find anything, this would have been handy.
 

Sandelfron

Scholar
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
478
Yet another thread on "Oblivion". I see PR Pete ( MSFD) has appeared right on queue.

Sarvis said:
Umm... mostly people ask for directions. There's entire websites devoted to it like <a href="http://www.mapquest.com">Mapquest</a>. It even puts a star on a map for you.

If anything this makes games MORE realistic, because it's just like having mapquest! :P
A great method of short-circuiting exploration and dialog attempting to get
information on locations out of NPCs, and uh.. looking at fucking roadsigns?
And when was the last time you had to search an entire city for someone? Whenever I need to find someone I pretty much know where to find them, like in their office or at their house.
Well, you could have the equivalent of a GPS system in a medieval - sorry
'fantasy world which has no Earthbound history', but where's the fun in that?

Just leave this slavishly hawked piece of crap till it's released. Hopefully reviewers
will pan the bloody thing and it will disappear up the arseholes it came from.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Sandelfron said:
Yet another thread on "Oblivion". I see PR Pete ( MSFD) has appeared right on queue.
MSFD is Steve Meister, a developer, not a PR guy
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Yep, ignore the other 23 questions, and only read the third sentence of question #6. Make sure you also ignore the last two sentences of question #6. Bear in mind as well all of your worst possible assumptions about glowing auras, Crazy Taxi style floating arrows and huge radar screens.

Alright let's be fair, and address all 23 points.

1. What improvements have been made to the Enchantment/Enchanting system, visually and logistically, since Morrowind? What of the Magic system as a whole?

It's purdier, and you don't have control of triggered effects. It's automagic, so you don't get confused about when is the best time to use the special charge on your foozle. And you have to use a soulgem or go to town to reload.

2. Is the combat system best suited to individual, or "group" combat? Might NPCs work alongside each other and employ tactics which utilize each of them in a joint strategy? To what scale can we expect to see battles taken?

It is of course completely optimized for both. Here's some double speak and some ugly if statements we added to fix the most ridiculous bugs. It could be a good fight, fat old rpg gamer pathetic twich micro reflexes vs. crappy FPS ai.

3. Can you share more with us about the skills available in Oblivion; what may have been added, removed, or merged; skills perks; how *many* major/minor skills our character may choose?

X-boxers throught Morrowind was like 4 times lamer than Halo, so we've freed them from the tyranny of choice with weapon skills. With MW, when you exploited the open ended nature of the game to design your own character, it could potential end up non-munchkin. We've fixed that.

4. In magic-based duels (mage-vs-mage), will the NPCs involved employ a more 'intelligent' strategy than what we saw in Morrowind?

I'm gonna read read something from one of my Hype Cards (TM) and you're not going to ask me to explain or justify it, okay?

5. We're aware that RAI gives schedules and desires to individual NPCs, but how will RAI work on a larger, social scale? For example, how might an NPC work in a guild environment, based on both its own goals, as well as those of the guild it is a part of?

Emergent AI to do cool stuff like that takes really smart people. We've got some old guy that worked on a voice recognition expert system in the 1960's. We like if statements.

6. Concerning the Dynamic Quest Compass, how might it replace the previously text-based instructions Elder Scrolls fans have become accustomed to? Furthermore, will the compass be an option which can be turned on and/or off at the player's leisure?

X-boxers can't read good. You won't mind you'll like it (pulls out baseball bat), trust me you'll like Daggerfall: Rails.

7. Will Radiant AI be applied to creatures, and if so, in what ways? Will creatures be placed on a schedule similar to humanoid NPCs; might some work together while hunting, to form 'packs'? And to what extent can they be used by the PC to carry packages. And as compared to NPC's?

YES. Oh that doesn't answer all of your question? Um they pretty much just attack you.

8. Have there been any changes to the list of joinable factions? Specifically, any info in the Nine Divines and/or Imperial Legion? Are there 'minor factions' outside of those listed in prior interviews, and ifso what can you tell us about them?

TYRANNY OF CHOICE. You owe us bitch.

9. In Morrowind, guild involvement was minimal. Other than people calling you master, there was little that changed as you gained rank. Can we expect that to change in Oblivion? How so?

YES. We promise. You get enchanting bonus as you level up yer guildz. <jedi> That is all the justification you need to believe the rest of the bs in this answer. </jedi>

10. We know that vampires will be found in Oblivion; what details about them can you share with us? Also, will there be any types of 'werecreatures' in the game?

Vampire in, but SEKRET. nowhere (ha!)

11. Besides being a faster means of travelling the world, what features can we expect to see with and from horses? How diverse might they be? Will your encumbrance or stats affect them in any way? And what will happen when a mounted character is attacked? And, aside from Horses, what other beasts may be in store for players as pets (such as the dog at E3)?

if (horse) { can_attack == 0; speed += 10; }

It's too hard to use horsies well (stuffs mount & blade dev in trunk).

12. In what ways will the player be able to physically customize their Oblivion counterpart at character creation?

Our barbie mini-game is the best. We've went all out on the surface here.

13. How are beast races being altered, based upon past appearances, traits, and possible perks--along the lines of claws giving the beast races a boost during hand-to-hand combat--for Oblivion?

You change skin color. They all walk the same to save us time to spend on erosion and putting light blooms on everything.


14. how will NPC's travel between cells, will they apear or open outside (loading) doors and step in the void?

We took the lame easy way, but we wasted lots of time trying cooler things before deciding on this, promise!.

15. Do NPCs have specific animations for actions such as shopping, praying etc?

They sit and kneel and all walk like humans.

16. What direction are you going in terms of NPC voices? As we already know there is over 50 hours of recoded dialogue in the game, but its been estimated that that only amounts to 3 minutes of dialouge per npc. Are NPC voices going to be as they were in morrowind, as in every race male/female will have a different voice, or will there be more of a variety in NPC voices?

Picard and Wonder Woman wil just not shut up. We've also got tons of repetitive useless banter by sex/race for atmosphere.

17. How will subtitles be used with the all spoken dialogue system? And if the game has prerendered cut scenes, will they have optional subtitles? (MW didn't) What about subtitles for sound effects? What about overhearing conversations?

We've done The good thing here and provided optional subtitles. Of course we've dumbed everything else down so much that no literate people will buy the game, so it's just more wasted time.

18. We know that there will be additional autonomous regions besides Cyrodil, including the plane of Oblivion. Can you give us a rough number about how many such places there are and how many square miles it will add? And will this be limited after the main quest? or will we be able to go there even after the MQ?

um 16 and for the other, I haven't added it up so it must be infinite.

19. What can you tell us about how water will 'work' in Oblivion? Will it use fluid physics, or be a static object set at level 0, as in Morrowind, or will there be mountain lakes and streams this time?

I'm not going to answer that. Instead I'll say it looks insane.

20. How diverse will the music of Oblivion be? Will it change according to the environment around the Player character? Will x-box 360 users be able to use their own music?

It's the bomb, don't worry, you can use your Papa Roach or Def Leppard music.

21. How exactly will the weather system work in terms of detail, immersion and interactivity. Will seasons and storms be included? To what extent will inanimate objects be affected by weather (i.e. combustible objects)? Will it affect Creatures/NPCs/PC?

Each region has a different weighting for weather. It's sweet. Storms aren't as ninja as MW. Super leet RAI let us (rainging && go_inside)

22. How will cells be handled this time... will you be able to create multiple exterior cells (like an improved "behave like exterior" command) and actually landscape in them?

editor is the rox0r

23. In a recent interview with gamespy you said modders could drop a block into the world and apply whatever material. Will this material alter the duration and volume of footsteps and will the natural environment - such as other nearby materials - contribute to that aspect as well? Will footprints be visible on some surfaces?

editor is the rox0r

24. Are you now going to include comprehensive documentation (including the scripting language, game settings etc) rather than the totally inadequate documentation that was provided for Morrowind? Are there any other ways that Bethesda is going to help Oblivion modders in their work?

editor docs isn't the rox0r.


Whew, so after all that, Oblivion is still making a beeline away from Daggerfall. Maybe it will be a good game, but to us it's just the corpse of daggerfall with the heart and brains ripped out, and a nice suit and a bunch of makeup applied.

If you want people to be as excited about the changes as you are, you need to go to a Halo forum rather than an rpg forum.
 

Kuato

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
253
Location
3 steps ahead
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Yep, ignore the other 23 questions, and only read the third sentence of question #6. Make sure you also ignore the last two sentences of question #6. Bear in mind as well all of your worst possible assumptions about glowing auras, Crazy Taxi style floating arrows and huge radar screens.

It seemed like more than half the interview was directed at cosmetics
 

RGE

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
773
Location
Karlstad, Sweden
micmu said:
Next-gen RPGs: People don't want riddles and reading
I don't mind reading, but I hate riddles. I don't want to have to second guess what the riddler might have been thinking about, or try to learn to think like they do, pay attention to the multitudes of uninteresting things in their universe. That's also why I don't like programming. Unfortunately riddles seem to be the primary way of using brains in fantasy CRPGs, and coming up with clever plans or ideas aren't given as much, if any, room. Probably due to the ease with which a riddle can be put in, compared to the difficulties of providing an environment where it pays of to do things in a smart way.

What, this thread isn't for people who don't want riddles? It's another Oblivion bashfest? :roll:
 

ShinAli

Novice
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
22
obediah said:
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Yep, ignore the other 23 questions, and only read the third sentence of question #6. Make sure you also ignore the last two sentences of question #6. Bear in mind as well all of your worst possible assumptions about glowing auras, Crazy Taxi style floating arrows and huge radar screens.

Alright let's be fair, and address all 23 points.

... I'm an idiot ...

This was the most lame attempt to translate "PR speak". All you did is just bastardize the answers for the hell of it.

And before you even say it, I considered of writing a counter argument for your shitty post, but I figured... why waste my time on it? I mean, I'm not the only one that noticed how blatantly stupid this post was.

And the fantastic rebuttal... "lol you just kant dink OBLIVION FANBOI"
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Yep, ignore the other 23 questions, and only read the third sentence of question #6. Make sure you also ignore the last two sentences of question #6. Bear in mind as well all of your worst possible assumptions about glowing auras, Crazy Taxi style floating arrows and huge radar screens.

And why not do that? Why not be cynical about any answers or PR Bethesda give out about TES games? After all, it was you blokes who showed us 'find Fargoth's gold' as representative of Morrowind's quests, it was your chief of production who said MW was going to be 'what Daggerfall would be if technical limitations weren't an issue'.

Remember - no-one was anywhere near as cynical back in the days when MW was in production. This cynicism is Bethesda's own doing. You chucked out practically everything great about Daggerfall, and put in more polygons. Ohhhh I loves those poglygons.

The astonishing hubris of Beth continues - to read Ken Rolston splooge out 'yeah, MW really was a miracle, we're so great' blah. I could barf. I'd like to know Ted Peterson and Julian LeFay's real opinion of Morrowind. I doubt it's terribly flattering.
 

Sandelfron

Scholar
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
478
ShinAli said:

I wonder about a fresh name appearing on the board that makes a beeline
for a thread like this. I wonder who it is that lacks the courage of their
convictions and likes to play with secondary accounts is what I wonder.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
12,080
Location
Behind you.
Twinfalls said:
Remember - no-one was anywhere near as cynical back in the days when MW was in production. This cynicism is Bethesda's own doing. You chucked out practically everything great about Daggerfall, and put in more polygons. Ohhhh I loves those poglygons.

Well, the cynic in me kind of wonders if the stuff left out of Oblivion will be the meat of future, inevitable expansion packs.

Sandelfron said:
I wonder about a fresh name appearing on the board that makes a beeline
for a thread like this. I wonder who it is that lacks the courage of their
convictions and likes to play with secondary accounts is what I wonder.

Most likely a TES fan has posted a link to this thread on the TES Forum.
 

ShinAli

Novice
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
22
Sandelfron said:
I wonder about a fresh name appearing on the board that makes a beeline
for a thread like this. I wonder who it is that lacks the courage of their
convictions and likes to play with secondary accounts is what I wonder.

That's funny. You're funny.

EDIT: And here is that "TES fan" rebuttal I was waiting for, aces! Good show, lad! God forbid someone sees that a popular, cynical opinion being supported by bastardized analyzations of quotes as unfounded!

EDIT2: And the TES forum is a cess pool.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
ShinAli said:
obediah said:
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Yep, ignore the other 23 questions, and only read the third sentence of question #6. Make sure you also ignore the last two sentences of question #6. Bear in mind as well all of your worst possible assumptions about glowing auras, Crazy Taxi style floating arrows and huge radar screens.

Alright let's be fair, and address all 23 points.

... I'm an idiot ...

This was the most lame attempt to translate "PR speak". All you did is just bastardize the answers for the hell of it.

And before you even say it, I considered of writing a counter argument for your shitty post, but I figured... why waste my time on it? I mean, I'm not the only one that noticed how blatantly stupid this post was.

And the fantastic rebuttal... "lol you just kant dink OBLIVION FANBOI"


CONTEXT, you fucktard. This is an rpg board, not Doom3 4-Eva. Within the context of RPGs my attacks make sense. Since your idea of game mechanics is what algorithm is used for texture shadow-anti-mapping or whatever, I'm sure all the answers were very enlightening to you. Of course, if you weren't drunkenly spewing your ignorance into new corners of the internet, you wouldn't have contemplated wasting time responding to obviosly cheap shots in the first place.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
Wow, this thread fucking sucks. I can't believe people are actually defending the guy who started this thread.
Stop whining. Oblivion is going to be a good game.
 

ShinAli

Novice
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
22
obediah said:
CONTEXT, you fucktard. This is an rpg board, not Doom3 4-Eva. Within the context of RPGs my attacks make sense. Since your idea of game mechanics is what algorithm is used for texture shadow-anti-mapping or whatever, I'm sure all the answers were very enlightening to you. Of course, if you weren't drunkenly spewing your ignorance into new corners of the internet, you wouldn't have contemplated wasting time responding to obviosly cheap shots in the first place.

Sounded like it was in context of an imbecile that cannot make any other type of good reason for its attacks.

And where did this "all you think about is graphics" bullshit came from? Oh wait a minute, I'm speaking to the same blithering idiot that likes to fabricate things. Ah.

But lets touch on this ALL COSMETIC TALK for a minute, here. I've made sure I re-read this fan interview, too...

Number one is the first answer so far to mention graphics of a specific feature of the game without context to the question. You can have that one.

Number twelve is the second answer that solely talks about character cosmetics, but that was in total right of the question asked. To qualify this as the one true point to prove that all Bethesda does is talk about graphics is insanity.

Number thirteen did dodge the perk part of the question, but TES games never really did place perks into specific races other than stats-wise. The question was largely asking about the race's looks anyways.

Number 14 and 15 were cosmetic questions, with cosmetic answers.

19 and 21, again, have the same situation.

So counting that up, seven answers talking about looks, and only one of them talking about graphics out of context of the question. If you have anyone to blame for too much graphics talk for this interview, it's the fans that asked said questions. That is, if it even is too much.

And what the hell is drunkenly supposed to mean? Did I typo? Did I unknowingly type a stutter, an emote of throwing up in your shoes, slurred my words, took off my pants and slept under my desk? Christ, come on. And I could care less if they were cheap shots. It was still stupid.

EDIT:
Sol Invictus said:
Wow, this thread fucking sucks. I can't believe people are actually defending the guy who started this thread.
Stop whining. Oblivion is going to be a good game.

Congratulations, you're going to be called a fanboy, a Doom 3 lovin' git. To say it is going to be good before it is even released is not a very wise thing to say.

However, so is saying that it's going to be bad, neither. But this forum is wanking that bandwagon like it's no tomorrow. Hell, they even resort to fabrication of things talked about, and pipedreams of things that HAVEN'T been talked about. All for a good night sleep of knowing that they have gone against the "man" once again, totally overlooking the fact that their speculations are misgiven and insignificant.

I hate the internet.
 

obediah

Erudite
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
5,051
Sol Invictus said:
Wow, this thread fucking sucks. I can't believe people are actually defending the guy who started this thread.
Stop whining. Oblivion is going to be a good game.

Maybe so, but that's not the point. This isn't GoodGameCodex. The whining does suck, but there's not much else to talk about. And rather than just let us stew in our bitter Bethesda-Sold-Out-To-XBOX juices, Betheda peeps and fans keep showing us to tell us how great the game will be, and that we just don't know what we want.

I agree the thread/argument suxs and I wish there was something better to talk about. Neither side can win, Bethesda is not going to make the Daggerfall sequel some of us want, and they're never going to confuse into thinking Oblivion is that game. There not going to make the fallout we want either, which confuses me terribly, because the fallout name doesn't mean jack shit to anyone else.
 

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