The biggest problem with Elder Scrolls magic

Twinfalls · Aug 8, 2005

No doubt people here have touched on this before, but I can't find it, so....

There's some spirited discussion in a thread below about one aspect of Oblivion's magic system (you can cast even more easily now). What troubles me most however about TES games (since Morrowind, as I recall this was one of the big steps backward from Daggerfall) is this:

You can learn just one spell and practice it until you are a master at it, and simultaneously be useless at all other spells . In TES, you can pick 'destruction magic' for example as a *sole* major skill - and load yourself up with non-magic skills, combat or stealth or whatever, for the rest of your skillset. Then you can simply buy a 'fireball' spell from some dude, (without joining any magic school), practice it non stop for a while, and et voila! You are a fire chucking barbarian thief.

I find this particularly unbelievable - to me, magic should be much more wholistic - one ought to be a general mage of some sort to be able to cast *any* spell with that much proficiency.

What Bethesda have done is to completely jettison what should be common sense - the notion that magic is a higher art, that there are *general* principles and techniques to be learned before you can cast any spell, of any sort.

This is supposed to be 'freedom' yet it is the most artificial idea I've seen in an RPG. And it seems to be accepted in the name of the 'well I ken do whatevar I want and that is kewl' mentality.

The Gothic games at least gave RPG magic some respect. To cast anything at a reasonable level you had to join the Mages Guild, and work your way up. None of this pick and choose what I am uber at in a total piecemeal fashion...

I really hope Bethesda eventually get back into their skulls that throwing away what are called 'restrictions' in the name of 'freedom' actually *reduces* the sophistication and therefore options available, when 'restrictions' mean giving the concept of magic more than just the value and depth of what vegetable you buy at a market.

I blame Todd Howard - he's demonstrated his ethos with comments like 'We like enchanting, and are going to make it even more easy in Oblivion' etc.

MrSmileyFaceDude · Aug 8, 2005

We have 6 schools of magic, each of which is represented as a skill. You can be 100% proficient in any of them. If you choose only one of them as a major skill, it'll start at a higher level and advancing it will contribute towards leveling up, just as if you choose non-magic skills as major skills.

So you can be fantastic at destruction (shooting fireballs) but horrible at restoration (healing spells). Just like you can be fantastic with a sword but horrible with a bow.

For Oblivion, there are also changes to the magic system that we haven't talked about yet that may change your perspective somewhat.

merry andrew · Aug 8, 2005

Twinfalls said:
You can learn just one spell and practice it until you are a master at it, and simultaneously be useless at all other spells . In TES, you can pick 'destruction magic' for example as a *sole* major skill - and load yourself up with non-magic skills, combat or stealth or whatever, for the rest of your skillset. Then you can simply buy a 'fireball' spell from some dude, (without joining any magic school), practice it non stop for a while, and et voila! You are a fire chucking barbarian thief.

Kinda like how a mage can learn to wield a battle axe?

Other than that, who's to say that someone absolutely has to have some sort of "mage" title to cast spells? That's certainly not how it works in this world

Although I do enjoy Gothic's system, I'm also fond of TES character development. They're just different worlds.

Vault Dweller · Aug 8, 2005

MrSmileyFaceDude said:
We have 6 schools of magic, each of which is represented as a skill.

A few questions. It was mentioned recently that there are 7 skills per "category". If there are 6 schools that must mean that one school was removed and one non-school magic related skill was added. So, which school was removed and why, and what's the extra skill?

For Oblivion, there are also changes to the magic system that we haven't talked about yet that may change your perspective somewhat.

Even better than casting while hacking someone with a sword? What could possibly top that?

crpgnut · Aug 8, 2005

Hey MSFD: You said that there are only 6 schools of magic this time. Have alchemy, enchanting, and unarmored been removed from the magic skill set? If so, that still leaves the same 6 skills that were in Morrowind. If not, which of the 9 skills have been done away with? NDA?

corvax · Aug 8, 2005

Twinfalls said:
You can learn just one spell and practice it until you are a master at it, and simultaneously be useless at all other spells . In TES, you can pick 'destruction magic' for example as a *sole* major skill - and load yourself up with non-magic skills, combat or stealth or whatever, for the rest of your skillset. Then you can simply buy a 'fireball' spell from some dude, (without joining any magic school), practice it non stop for a while, and et voila! You are a fire chucking barbarian thief.

And how freakin' cool is that! :cool:

I find this particularly unbelievable - to me, magic should be much more wholistic - one ought to be a general mage of some sort to be able to cast *any* spell with that much proficiency.

To you. That's the problem here. You're feeding on some sort of stereotype and just can't let it go. Too much D&D maybe? Comics? Cartoons? A general mage in TES can cast any spell without much proficiency because most schools of magic are in his major and minor skills. Additionally a magic oriented character will increase magic skills faster that if you picked a stealth or combat character.

What Bethesda have done is to completely jettison what should be common sense - the notion that magic is a higher art, that there are *general* principles and techniques to be learned before you can cast any spell, of any sort.

Common sense? Dude you're talking about magic! Unless you can throw fireballs in real life you're talking semantics. General principles and techniques to be learned? How? Even D&D games suck at this. Pick a mage class, read a scroll, memorize it. Wow, that's some really high art...makes you feel like a true mage :roll:

I know TES isn't perfect either but its system isn't that bad. You pick a skill, practice it, or get a trainer. It works just fine.

This is supposed to be 'freedom' yet it is the most artificial idea I've seen in an RPG. And it seems to be accepted in the name of the 'well I ken do whatevar I want and that is kewl' mentality.

Artificial? What's so artificial about being a thief and being good at illusion? What about being an orc barbarian with some battle magic skills? It's all about creating the most diverse character you possibly can. Troika with Arcanum did just that (at character creation), they only implemeted it better in the actual game.

The Gothic games at least gave RPG magic some respect. To cast anything at a reasonable level you had to join the Mages Guild, and work your way up. None of this pick and choose what I am uber at in a total piecemeal fashion...

Pick and choose and you're uber? True you can make the game easier by picking a certain combination of combat/magic skills but at the start you're a weakling and continue to be one for at least next 10 levels. Additionally in TES you can cast very little at the start, practice, practice, hire a trainer, joint the guild-get lower prices and extra trainers who didn't want to deal with you before. What's so wrong with that?

I really hope Bethesda eventually get back into their skulls that throwing away what are called 'restrictions' in the name of 'freedom' actually *reduces* the sophistication and therefore options available, when 'restrictions' mean giving the concept of magic more than just the value and depth of what vegetable you buy at a market.

WHAT? It may reduce the 'sophistication' whatever that means. But since you're a real life mage I guess you know better. It also reduces available options? Think before you write again. It gives you more options. Magic stil has depth, there are flaws and it could use a lot of tweaking but it's nowhere nearly as bad as you describe it.

I blame Todd Howard - he's demonstrated his ethos with comments like 'We like enchanting, and are going to make it even more easy in Oblivion' etc.

I blame this, I blame that, blame the society...Stop being a bitch. From what we know the whole magic system has been heavily twaked for Oblivion and it doesn't take a genious to figure out what was wrong with Morrowind's system. Now if only MSFD would start talking :wink:

MrSmileyFaceDude · Aug 8, 2005

Each magic effect (fire damage, restore health, chameleon, etc.) resides in a school of magic - Destruction, Restoration, Illusion, Alteration, Mysticism and Conjuration. The same 6 from Morrowind. No schools of magic have been removed. Don't confuse skills in the magic schools with skills of a certain specialization (magic, combat or stealth).

Other than that, I can't comment on what skills are or aren't in the game.

corvax · Aug 8, 2005

A little harmless specualtion on my part.
That leaves out: Alchemy, Enchant, and Unarmored. The last one could have been integraded with some other armor skill. We know that Alchemy and Enchant are in but have undergone major overhaul meaning that they are "skills of a certain specialization". I guess similar thing was done with lockpicking where it no longer is a skill but a "mini-game". Now only if MSFD would shed some light on what governs your success in those skills since my guess would be that you no longer pick them at the start of the game.

Vault Dweller · Aug 8, 2005

Ok, I guess, Enchant wasn't a school then. My mistake.

Vykromond · Aug 8, 2005

IIRC from the Morrowind manual, Enchant was a "magic-type skill" sort of thing but was not one of the 6 schools of magic, just like MSFD said.

crpgnut · Aug 8, 2005

I hope not, Hussar. If we get a bunch of mini-games, it is going to ruin Oblivion. Morrowind was a success on the consoles because it was different than other console crpgs. If we add mini-games and take away several skills, Oblivion starts to look like every other rpg-lite game. MSFD says all the mage skills still exist. He didn't explain anything about enchanting or alchemy, but I feel you're probably right in that these are no longer skills.

We'll see. I'm hoping that we just don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. I'd hate Oblivion if it's full of twitchy-type stuff.

GhanBuriGhan · Aug 8, 2005

It was recently stated (I believe in the Console Gold interview?) that mini-games for Enchanting and Alchemy were talked about but ultimately abandoned. However there is a "minigame" for lockpicking that sounds like its somewhat like Splinter Cell's.

Twinfalls · Aug 8, 2005

hussar said:
Common sense? Dude you're talking about magic! Unless you can throw fireballs in real life you're talking semantics.

hussar said:
But since you're a real life mage I guess you know better.

Great comments there. This is a gaming site. Have I suggested at any point that I am talking about anything other than magic in games? Here's a handy little life lesson: your arguments will be taken more seriously if you don't make dumb ad hominem comments. Ad hominem, means, analogously, "playing the man and not the ball" - one should only try it if one can do it with some sophistication.

Now you obviously play games to escape from reality. And perhaps you want the next big budget 3D RPG to let you be a flying unicorn which can transform into a 4WD, is invincible from the get go, and which travels through a world made of hot fudge.

To most people, however, that's just silly. And you can say to them 'well U can't tell me I cant have that because it is JUST A GAME WAAAAAAHHHHH!', but they won't have to listen to you. Because it will mean you are a baby, or retarded, or perhaps, both.

There's a word called "believability". This means, when used to describe a game, that what happens in it makes sense. Even though, yes, it is only a game, the things that happen have *logic*, and an internal cohesion. So, in the case of the Elder Scrolls, a universe which is established as mature, sophisticated, and in which the general social rules correspond with that of Earth, highly proficient magic makes sense as something learned from a school, and not bought at a corner shoppe. Especially since you don't see everyone launching fireballs at every corner.

As it was in Daggerfall. Or, at least, as I remember it was in that game. Perhaps I'm wrong, in which case, mea culpa. So maybe I'm arguing for something new. I still think its worth considering.

hussar said:
General principles and techniques to be learned? How? Even D&D games suck at this. Pick a mage class, read a scroll, memorize it. Wow, that's some really high art...makes you feel like a true mage Rolling Eyes I know TES isn't perfect either but its system isn't that bad. You pick a skill, practice it, or get a trainer. It works just fine.

Here's my suggestion. It may work 'just fine' as it is, but it might work much better, and add much more flavour and depth to the game, if you have to join a mages guild (or even a temple guild - which we don't yet know we're even getting) and do some quest tasks, before you can cast any magic of any sort. The tasks may relate to learning somehow.

Heresy? Its only a suggestion, to illustrate an *idea*. Please consider it rather than leaping to shoot it down.

Twinfalls · Aug 8, 2005

MrSmileyFaceDude said:
We have 6 schools of magic, each of which is represented as a skill. You can be 100% proficient in any of them. If you choose only one of them as a major skill, it'll start at a higher level and advancing it will contribute towards leveling up, just as if you choose non-magic skills as major skills.

So you can be fantastic at destruction (shooting fireballs) but horrible at restoration (healing spells). Just like you can be fantastic with a sword but horrible with a bow.

For Oblivion, there are also changes to the magic system that we haven't talked about yet that may change your perspective somewhat.

What I am suggesting is that RPG gaming is losing something by contuning to treat magic as just another cheap and easy gameplay mechanic, and TES is at the forefront of this. Perhaps I've written my first post wrongly, in that I suggested this was already a standard in RPGs. My memory of Daggerfall isn't the best, but I seem to recall advancing in magic to require more dedication to either the Mages Guild or one of the temples. I certainly remember that enchanting wasn't available so freely like in Morrowind. But to repeat, and I should phrase this as a suggestion:

I believe that RPG gaming would actually improve if magic was considered in a more mature, sophisticated way. Of course you can't throw fireballs in real life, but does that mean we must throw away *all* sophistication in games as well? Surely it makes sense, in a mature game world, that magic is an art that requires a general level of proficiency for any specific mastery to be achieved? Is this so difficult a concept to understand?

I hope the other changes you mentioned do something like this, but you do understand what I'm getting at, I hope....

corvax · Aug 8, 2005

Twinfalls said:
Great comments there. This is a gaming site. Have I suggested at any point that I am talking about anything other than magic in games? Here's a handy little life lesson: your arguments will be taken more seriously if you don't make dumb ad hominem comments. Ad hominem, means, analogously, "playing the man and not the ball" - one should only try it if one can do it with some sophistication.

Now you obviously play games to escape from reality. And perhaps you want the next big budget 3D RPG to let you be a flying unicorn which can transform into a 4WD, is invincible from the get go, and which travels through a world made of hot fudge.

Ha Ha...Look who's making Ad Hominem argument now. I admit in attacking both you and your argument but I did so because you made a post dedicated to bitching. Additionally you've made few dumb statements dealing with artificial freedom, being uber at the start, and Todd Howard. Obviously you have a problem with the magic system in TES but missed my point that your problem is more about preconceived notions of how a magic system should function in the first place.

There's a word called "believability". This means, when used to describe a game, that what happens in it makes sense. Even though, yes, it is only a game, the things that happen have *logic*, and an internal cohesion. So, in the case of the Elder Scrolls, a universe which is established as mature, sophisticated, and in which the general social rules correspond with that of Earth, highly proficient magic makes sense as something learned from a school, and not bought at a corner shoppe. Especially since you don't see everyone launching fireballs at every corner.

There's this word called "stereotype". This means a preconceived idea and oversimplified idea of characteristics which typify a person or thing. Breaking stereotypes has been a hallmark of TES games. Whether it "cheapens" the magic system is relative. Being a Magic oriented character in TES ain't THAT easy and you still haven't responded what's wrong with training a skill, hiring a trainer, joining the guild (for more advanced training). Your only argument was: "Wow and now this stupid barbarian can throw a fireball at me. How unsophisticated is that?" That's a weak, weak argument. In the end what you did was equivalent of asking for class based characters in Fallout 3 :roll:

If you have an issue with thinking "outside of the box" then that's your problem.

Twinfalls · Aug 8, 2005

Okay look Hussar - I edited my post (but it seems after you read it), as I realised I was being too hostile and a bit silly. So please re-read it. I'll put down the axe if you will too, but I've re-written my suggestion.

Twinfalls · Aug 8, 2005

hussar said:
There's this word called "stereotype". This means a preconceived idea and oversimplified idea of characteristics which typify a person or thing. Breaking stereotypes has been a hallmark of TES games. Whether it "cheapens" the magic system is relative. Being a Magic oriented character in TES ain't THAT easy and you still haven't responded what's wrong with training a skill, hiring a trainer, joining the guild (for more advanced training). Your only argument was: "Wow and now this stupid barbarian can throw a fireball at me. How unsophisticated is that?" That's a weak, weak argument. In the end what you did was equivalent of asking for class based characters in Fallout 3 If you have an issue with thinking "outside of the box" then that's your problem.

Perhaps I'm contradicting myself, as I don't believe that 'no barbarian should be able to throw a fireball'. My suggestion that one has to join a mages-type guild or and do some general learning-type quests is maybe not such a good one....

But:

I do, however, think that there should be *something more* to magic than just picking up a spell and practising it. And I do single TES out for this because of their stated (And it is Todd Howard who drives this) ethos of making 'everything available to everyone'. And this definitely applies to enchanting - as idiotically easily available (with no mystique whatsoever) as it was in Morrowind, Todd has stated that he wants it to be 'even more easy to do'.

corvax · Aug 9, 2005

Twinfalls said:
Okay look Hussar - I edited my post after you read it, as I realised I was being too hostile and a bit silly. So please re-read it. I'll put down the axe if you will too, but I've re-written my suggestion.

Oh, you didn't have to do all that. It's not like hostility is foreign here at the Codex but thanks anyway. Your suggestion ain't bad either and if your very first post was written in the same way then this little fallout would have never occured.

I do, however, think that there should be *something more* to magic than just picking up a spell and practising it. And I do single TES out for this because of their stated (And it is Todd Howard who drives this) ethos of making 'everything available to everyone'.

I do agree that magic is too abundant in TES but in no way would I want to implement any sort of "class restriction". Also I do like the idea of learning a magik skill on my own by practicing it, reading books about it, and even getting a trainer to help you. Fully restricting the use of magic unless one joins a guild is way too rigid not to mention completely unlike-TES. It would be better to think of how can one still make everything available to everyone but at the same time make it more demanding for a character to achieve competency in a particular skill. Now there is only a handful of games, which successfully do that.

RGE · Aug 9, 2005

hussar said:
Artificial? What's so artificial about being a thief and being good at illusion? What about being an orc barbarian with some battle magic skills? It's all about creating the most diverse character you possibly can. Troika with Arcanum did just that (at character creation), they only implemeted it better in the actual game.

I don't know what you're talking about, but I didn't much care for the way Troika let certain magic spells and potions work perfectly well for characters with Tech 100. It's one thing to stay at tech/magic 0 in order to take advantage of what both can offer, but being able to totally tech out and then cast spells that boosted physical attributes by 4 (stackable) and chug magic potions which boosted Intelligence by 10 (Only want to be brainy when building and 'earning' degrees? Go with Magic Potions!) didn't improve the roleplaying atmosphere one bit. But what was I going to do? Not take advantage of cheatin' good advantages while spending my precious skillpoints on that which magic could not buy? Yeah, right!

Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas · Aug 9, 2005

Twinfalls, you have a very interesting view of magic.

I should point one thing out to you before my main argument: Different RPG universes have different views of magic. Some view it as a raw energy focused apon on one level, some make more distintions.

The Idea of specialization and exclusively practicing one lore reflects a more character based and hybrid-freindly system.

Basicaly look at it this way. Say I'm a theif. Part of my sneakiness is mental concealement. Now lets say I have a bit of a magical gift. How do you think my "gift" will manifest if all my focus is is on not being detected? It would manifest itself as ilusion magic. Or I might have a bit of firy tempor that my character supresses to make him better at sneaking, now it manifests itself as destruction.

I could run similar examples with every archtype and every lore. In the TES universe, every creature is capable of casting spells, though on most the spell would be no more then moving a bread crumb half a centimeter with a great chance of failier. Some can do it better than others, and some can be better in some areas than others.

Sandelfron · Aug 9, 2005

Screaming Dude In Vegas: Now where have I seen that screen-name before?

LlamaGod · Aug 9, 2005

My problem with the Elder Scrolls 'OMG FREEDOM BE ANYTHANG' system is that it has no structure at all. It isnt much of a system as it is a list of abilities.

Just pick whichever random fucking abilities and once you max them out thats the full ability. There is no structure in the system. No need to experiment or create interesting classes like Arcanum or Fallout.

It isnt a character system, it's unstructured 'freedom', just like how running around looking at terrian is 'non-linear'.

A true freedom based system would be Arcanum or Fallout, which are STRUCTURED and classless and free. You can advance your characters in specific different ways and build a whole special character. Not just picking a list of shit and viola.

another good system would be in the one in Geneforge, where all classes have access to the same set of abilities and skills, but take cost penalties to different areas. The main 3 areas are Magic, Melee and Shaping. Agents are Excellent at Magic, Average at Melee and Poor at Shaping, so all things are open to them except Magic stuff is cheaper, Melee stuff is normal and Shaping skills cost extra.

There is no character progressing or a system or anything in the ES system, so therefore it sucks.

I hope you can understand what i'm saying.

corvax · Aug 9, 2005

RGE said:
hussar said:

Artificial? What's so artificial about being a thief and being good at illusion? What about being an orc barbarian with some battle magic skills? It's all about creating the most diverse character you possibly can. Troika with Arcanum did just that (at character creation), they only implemeted it better in the actual game.

Click to expand...

I don't know what you're talking about, but I didn't much care for the way Troika let certain magic spells and potions work perfectly well for characters with Tech 100. It's one thing to stay at tech/magic 0 in order to take advantage of what both can offer, but being able to totally tech out and then cast spells that boosted physical attributes by 4 (stackable) and chug magic potions which boosted Intelligence by 10 (Only want to be brainy when building and 'earning' degrees? Go with Magic Potions!) didn't improve the roleplaying atmosphere one bit. But what was I going to do? Not take advantage of cheatin' good advantages while spending my precious skillpoints on that which magic could not buy? Yeah, right!

My fault. I should have been more specific as I'm fully aware of those problems. What I did like was the way Troika handled skill advancement i.e. you had to seek out a special trainer or a master in order to improve your skill further, find a schematic, etc. Additionally those special trainers weren't as bland as the ones in Morrowind and had some motive behind them. This added a certain level of involvement and achievement when improving your character.

corvax · Aug 9, 2005

LlamaGod said:
Just pick whichever random fucking abilities and once you max them out thats the full ability. There is no structure in the system. No need to experiment or create interesting classes like Arcanum or Fallout.

It isnt a character system, it's unstructured 'freedom', just like how running around looking at terrian is 'non-linear'.

Oh, you can still experiment and create pretty interesting characters. There is structure a bit loose though requiring much more "creativness" on the player's part (which may be seen as good or bad). Now, how about creating a non-combat stealth oriented merchant who's secretly practicing conjuration and mysticism? A peaceful pilgrim who wears no armor and uses only hand-to-hand or illusion spells to deal with his enemies? A true battlemage? A thief who excelles at illusion? Etc. My point is that it's very much possible to create very interesting characters. It's true though that Fallout and Arcanum handled this in a much better way but let's not totally discredit TES.

another good system would be in the one in Geneforge, where all classes have access to the same set of abilities and skills, but take cost penalties to different areas. The main 3 areas are Magic, Melee and Shaping. Agents are Excellent at Magic, Average at Melee and Poor at Shaping, so all things are open to them except Magic stuff is cheaper, Melee stuff is normal and Shaping skills cost extra.

Well you should know that a combat character will level up more slowly at magic skills than a magic character. Same goes for other combinations. Geneforge is much more restrictive than Morrowind in that sense however I think that this is more of a matter of a personal preference.

There is no character progressing or a system or anything in the ES system, so therefore it sucks.

Way to end a pretty solid argument on a silly note.

Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas · Aug 9, 2005

Screaming Dude In Vegas: Now where have I seen that screen-name before?

Elder Scrolls Offical Forums
Waiting 4 Oblivion Forums
Perspectives Political message boards
Herdstone Warhammer beastmen discusion.

Any of those?

My problem with the Elder Scrolls 'OMG FREEDOM BE ANYTHANG' system is that it has no structure at all. It isnt much of a system as it is a list of abilities.

Just pick whichever random fucking abilities and once you max them out thats the full ability. There is no structure in the system. No need to experiment or create interesting classes like Arcanum or Fallout.

Well I haven't played Arcanum, but Fallout wasn't realy any different. I could pick steal, Doctor, and Large Guns, and have my stats be not matching at all.

It isnt a character system, it's unstructured 'freedom', just like how running around looking at terrian is 'non-linear'.

A true freedom based system would be Arcanum or Fallout, which are STRUCTURED and classless and free. You can advance your characters in specific different ways and build a whole special character. Not just picking a list of shit and viola.

You could pick a bunch of shit and viola...Or you could pick logical skills based on what to do. I could choose any set of skills I wanted, but they might not work well together. Also It allows me to make the type of character that I want to make. Supose I want to make a fighter who is very good with words, or a mage who likes to save magic by sneaking around?

another good system would be in the one in Geneforge, where all classes have access to the same set of abilities and skills, but take cost penalties to different areas. The main 3 areas are Magic, Melee and Shaping. Agents are Excellent at Magic, Average at Melee and Poor at Shaping, so all things are open to them except Magic stuff is cheaper, Melee stuff is normal and Shaping skills cost extra.

That just seams like a "dumbed down" version of the crappy D&D system. So I can break my class archtype, but I am penalized for it...

There is no character progressing or a system or anything in the ES system, so therefore it sucks.

I hope you can understand what i'm saying.

I can understand it and think what your saying is rubish. There is a way to progress your character in a TES game based on the skills you want to use. Sure, this makes abuse very posssible, but it allows for somone to play the exact character they want without fealing like their giving somthing up.

The biggest problem with Elder Scrolls magic

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