Tactics in TB combat

Vault Dweller · Jan 3, 2005

A few questions for your amusement:

What kinda tactics / tactical elements would you like to see in a TB fantasy game that doesn't have spells, fairies, and other crap? What tactical elements are a must and what would be nice to have? What about tactical value of terrain / locations?

Some info for your reference: The game is focused on a single character, so no party-based tactics. There are special attacks (like FO2 unarmed attacks but more indepth). Most enemies are fellow humans.

Otaku_Hanzo · Jan 3, 2005

Here's stuff I would love to see in a single person TB combat system: (and I'm just gonna use a generic -/+ to hit system to give the general idea)

Cover:

Light - Target is behind a small tree, or crouched out in the open. -1 to hit.
Medium - Target is standing behind a half-wall, or picket fence, or is prone out in the open. -2 to hit.
Heavy - Target is behind a thick copse of trees or hedges. -3 to hit.

High/Low Ground

High - Ranged characters obviously have an advantage. +2 to hit.
Low - Ranged at a disadvantage. -2 to hit.

Aimed Shot:

Aiming should be done on a per turn basis where the character gets +1 to hit for every turn spent aiming with a maximum of +3 available.

Called Shot:

Called shots should be done specific to location as such -

Head: -3 to hit
Chest: -1 to hit
Arms/Legs: -2 to hit

Locational Damage:

Head: x3 damage
Chest: x2 damage (but ONLY is it's a called shot)

Sneaking & Flanking:

LOS for the enemy and sneaking ability are a must for someone like me. I have the patience of Job when it comes to this kind of stuff and one of the things I loved to do in JA2 was have a sneak character and just work my way around behind the enemy for that lovely sneak attack bonus. And, yes, I did this in turn based mode alot. I personally think a flank attack of the sneak nature warrants a good chance at an instant kill. I would say 75% chance of instant kill with modifiers available as above where the +/- becomes a factor of percentages in tens. (I.E. - +1 to hit becomes +10% chance for instant kill and vice versa.) Also, if the instant kill fails, the attack still inflicts max damage for the weapon with 1.5x damage modifier.

That's all I can think of for now. Hope it makes sense.

Elwro · Jan 3, 2005

1. How about overwatch? When I played Necromunda (a great tabletop game BTW) it was a frequently used tactic. If you don't move during your turn (and don't see (I think) any enemies), you can enter overwatch mode; in enemy movement phase you are forced to shoot the first enemy who appears in your field of vision. (Of course one could change the details and e.g. let the player choose if he wants to shoot or not).
2. Concealment, maybe? If you spend an entire turn near a reasonably sized obstacle (medium cover or more?) you could hide and enemies would have to come closer to your position to spot you, of course, if they're coming from the right direction.

Deacdo · Jan 3, 2005

All the stuff Otaku_Hanzo mentioned.

If we're talkin' a low technology game (no guns etc.), I'd like to see formations and various tactics to break them (charging with a heavy character) or keep them in place. It was so stupid in games like IWD or BG games where you could just run right through your enemies and kill their mage/archer/whatever. If you engage an enemy or an enemy engages you, it shoudl be DAMNEd danergerous to turn your back on them or just run by. So flanking and all that kind of stuff would play a part to.

Other features:

--Weapons with various ranges. Pikes, spears can hit enemies further away etc. and all the various things you can do with that.
--Hight bonuses/penalties. Only when it makes sense, though. Not for a rapier or something like that. That, and if there IS someone dumb enough to jump up on a table, you should be able to kick the table out from under 'em

Sorry for the somewhat half-@ssed explanations

Damnit. I just read the explanation. You order about only one character? Seems pretty pointless to have TBed combat at all.

Otaku_Hanzo · Jan 3, 2005

Nice additions, Elwro.

Another thing about concealment is you could have camouflage available and make it like in the newest MGS game where, if you know what kind of environment you'll be fighting in, and you have gotten yourself the proper resources through gameplay, you can get the appropriate camo type to give you a bonus on concealment.

Deacdo said:
Damnit. I just read the explanation. You order about only one character? Seems pretty pointless to have TBed combat at all.

Ever play a map in JA2 with just one Merc? If you ever do, you'll be glad it's TB.

almondblight · Jan 3, 2005

What everyone else said, also a wide variety of items. Like things you through to distract gaurds, and traps you can set. I just finished the Myth series and there was nothing more satisfying than having a dwarf lay out a satchel patch field, luring a large group of ghols over it then setting it off.

Vault Dweller · Jan 3, 2005

Otaku_Hanzo said:
Cover:
...
High/Low Ground
...
Aimed Shot:

Most of this stuff relates to ranged characters. What about melee tactics? Any thoughts?

Sneaking & Flanking:

Sneaking is in, flanking is not for obvious reasons.

Another thing about concealment is you could have camouflage available and make it like in the newest MGS game where, if you know what kind of environment you'll be fighting in, and you have gotten yourself the proper resources through gameplay, you can get the appropriate camo type to give you a bonus on concealment.

That, technically, is a part of sneaking, but no, you can't do that.

Elwro said:
How about overwatch?

I call it interrupt, and it's in.

Deacdo said:
--Weapons with various ranges. Pikes, spears can hit enemies further away etc. and all the various things you can do with that

Long reach weapons and "all the various things you can do do with that" are in.

You order about only one character? Seems pretty pointless to have TBed combat at all.

You could easily play solo in Fallout. Can't say that it was pointless.

almondblight said:
What everyone else said, also a wide variety of items

We have that plus individual properties per item class and some items within a class.

Anyway, let me rephrase my question. Melee combat. You enter an area, see some people, they see you, you think it would be cool if they were like totally dead. The feeling is mutual. They draw their weapons, you draw yours. Now, at this point, are there any tactical elements you want to see other than clicking on each bastard until he dies?

We have some special attacks and abilities like Fallout-inspired knockdown attacks and long reach weapons like spears that can keep opponents at bay. We have weighted nets (Roman gladiators style), courtesy of EEVIAC, etc. Any thoughts in that direction?

Stark · Jan 4, 2005

maybe I'm too influenced by ToEE, but here's what i thought:

1) option of deferrment of your turn. assuming you have a higher initiative, but you can opt to defer your turn to a later one. in some instances it is advantageous to do so.

2) charging attack.

not really related to tactics but a visual cue (of lighted circle) of how far you can run/charge in a map during your turn would help immensely in planning.

also, are you implementing a skill tree? the spring attack and whirlwind attack in DnD did add some spice to what could have been a dull melee combat.

Fez · Jan 4, 2005

OK, some random thoughts on the subject:

How about being able to throw burning oil/pitch in a clay pot? I'm thinking it would be useful as a barrier in combat.

You could have melee moves which are aimed at disarming the opponent. They could give a chance for the enemy to drop the weapon at a reduced chance to hit and a greatly reduced amount of damage inflicted on a successful strike.

The choice of using daggers or axes in melee or throwing them if the PC has the skill to do so.

You could have a sort of "reckless charge" ability that lets you move faster and gives you a good initial strike, but a penalty for the next move and a bonus to the enemy NPC (if it survives).

On a similar note a defensive stance would be useful for countering this.

It'd be good if the direction of the enemy changed the damage and effect that an attack caused too. If you attack someone from the side you could have an increased chance to disarm or cause damage, from behind a greatly increased chance for damage.

Similar to the disarm idea, you could have attacks aimed at damaging beyond use or knocking away shields (or possibly armour, helmets, etc.).

Combat in water/swampland should give penalties, so if a player stands on a river bank and an NPC has to run across a freezing river and attack the PC the NPC should have big penalties due to being cold and waterlogged.

The player could throw dirt into the NPCs eyes, dishonourable but if it works no one will ever know. :wink:

Proper guards/police/friendly locals who, if present and in fitting with the plot, help people out who have been attacked, be it the player or NPC.

Bleeding wounds like in JA2. Enough said.

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

Stark said:
option of deferrment of your turn. assuming you have a higher initiative, but you can opt to defer your turn to a later one. in some instances it is advantageous to do so.

There is no such option at the moment. If you don't feel like attacking, you skip your turn but get an interrupt attack against the first guy who enters your reach area.

charging attack.

Haven't thought of this one. Sounds good

not really related to tactics but a visual cue (of lighted circle) of how far you can run/charge in a map during your turn would help immensely in planning.

That's in, including the ranged attack area (all ranged weapons - knives, axes, bows, xbows, etc have different range)

also, are you implementing a skill tree?

A skill tree? No. There are skills, weapon skills open different attacks, other skills give you a chance to do certain things associated with each skills (i.e. investing in dodge increases your chance to get a bonus attack if your dodge is successful)

the spring attack and whirlwind attack in DnD did add some spice to what could have been a dull melee combat.

Yep. There is an equivalent of a whirlwind attack but you can't do that with a dagger or a short sword for obvious reasons.

Fez said:
How about being able to throw burning oil/pitch in a clay pot? I'm thinking it would be useful as a barrier in combat.

Sounds cool. I already have alchemy and greek fire for item crafting, it would make a lot of sense to make it a throwable item too.

You could have melee moves which are aimed at disarming the opponent

That I have, although it's currently attached to certain weapons (depending on the skill level).

The choice of using daggers or axes in melee or throwing them if the PC has the skill to do so.

Also in. You can throw a lot of melee weapons, and you can use some ranged weapons like knives and throwing axes in melee.

Crichton · Jan 4, 2005

Some info for your reference: The game is focused on a single character, so no party-based tactics. There are special attacks (like FO2 unarmed attacks but more indepth). Most enemies are fellow humans.

I really hope you'll reconsider this if you're serious about tactical thinking. By the strictest definitions you can't even have tactics without elements to combin.Limiting things to a single element, a single manuevre unit eliminates the lion's share of any tactical thinking (see arcanum, fallout and NWN).

That said, the most important part of any tactical system is the interplay between the various unit types. How vulnerable is each to missile fire? How does each weapon fair against the others? To what degree to units lose mobility by wearing armor and what does this prevent them from doing (ie cutting off special attacks, lowering movement rate, preventing them from using certain weapons). How each is afffected by various types of terrain is also important, especially if you include cavalry or have specialised light infantry.

Beyond that you might want to think about targeting restrictions, how much effect cover has, whether any of the missile types can fire indirectly, etc.

If you're looking for examples of this done well, I'd suggest Final Fantasy tactics, and then maybe tactics ogre or ToEE, after that the infinity engine games, then silent storm and maybe then JA2.

protobob · Jan 4, 2005

I really liked the spear combat in Teudegar, where you lead off each fight with a spear ( carried in one hand) thrown at an enemy, which a chance of knocking an enemy's shield out of his hand if the spear hits the shield.

Perhaps something to consider for thrown weapons: an extra weapon slot for a one- shot thrown weapon (than can later be picked up and reamred). Then again if you already have multiple weapon slots this is a moot point. Definetly would like to see thrown weapons recoverable (most of the time) and usefull.

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

Crichton said:
I really hope you'll reconsider this if you're serious about tactical thinking.

No can do.

By the strictest definitions you can't even have tactics without elements to combin.Limiting things to a single element....

A party member is only one out of many tactical elements. There are many others. If a lone spearman impales one of the several attackers, thus losing the spear but making the attacker immobile, and continues the fight with a short sword, is it not tactics?

How vulnerable is each to missile fire? How does each weapon fair against the others? To what degree to units lose mobility by wearing armor and what does this prevent them from doing (ie cutting off special attacks, lowering movement rate, preventing them from using certain weapons).

That's implemented, and the concept of a heavy armored fighter is well defined with all the advantages and disadvantages.

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

protobob said:
Then again if you already have multiple weapon slots this is a moot point.

Two slots, one for each hand.

Definetly would like to see thrown weapons recoverable (most of the time) and usefull.

Recoverable and useful. A question though. What about arrows and bolts? Should they be recoverable? They are actually a part of items crafting, as you don't upgrade bows, but arrow heads. That makes them more valuable than regular store-bought arrows, especially if a rare ore is used. Any thoughts?

protobob · Jan 4, 2005

I'd say arrows and bolts should be recoverable, though not at a 100% success rate. Some will invariable get damaged and become useless.

But then I'm not familiar with your crafting system so I don't konw how plentifull they would be.

I'd prefer less plentiful & reusable vs. having an infinite supply at a shop or what not (and they being usable only one), especially if the game has a theme of scarcity (ie. post-apoc).

Stark · Jan 4, 2005

A question though. What about arrows and bolts? Should they be recoverable?

depends how you implement the loot screen. if the game requires me to perform pixle hunting around the map to recover the arrows... then it's a bad bad idea.

Otaku_Hanzo · Jan 4, 2005

Okay, sorry about that. It's just I'm the sniper/stealth-kill type and so ranged is my weapon of choice when possible. I'm just biased that way.

As for melee, I prefer the sneak option. Besides, most anything I can think of for melee has already been put down here.

Vault Dweller said:
What about arrows and bolts? Should they be recoverable?

Just to save hassle, I would make only the ones that hit their target recoverable. That would be a bit more realistic anyways. In an urban environment, missed arrows might be easier to find, but the chance of them getting broken is very good. In the wilderness the chance they might get broken is less, but then they're going to be a royal bitch to find unless they stuck in a tree or something. Now, while all this may not necessarily be all binding law, it does help justify not having missed shots be recoverable.

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

Stark said:
depends how you implement the loot screen. if the game requires me to perform pixle hunting around the map to recover the arrows... then it's a bad bad idea.

After a battle is over, you get a loot screen like in Realms of Arkania games. No pixel hunting, no manual looting.

Otaku said:
It's just I'm the sniper/stealth-kill type and so ranged is my weapon of choice when possible.

Well, I put a lot of efforts into ranged combat, so hopefully you won't be disappointed.

Just to save hassle, I would make only the ones that hit their target recoverable

I suppose it's doable and reasonable.

Eclecticist · Jan 4, 2005

Bluffing could be an interesting addition.
I.e. if you bluff then attack, it could give you a bonus to hit at a heavier action point (or equivalent of) usage. This should only be useful against creatures or humans with low intelligence, training or awareness, i.e. drunks, civilians with no experience in combat, etc. You know what I'm saying. This could even be a combat skill you could invest character development in.

Trip attacks and fumble attacks would be good.
You've already confirmed the disarm/fumble option, which is good, but I don't think you've commented on trip attacks. If you have, well, damn. Anyway, a pretty simply penalty to hit but if the hit is successful the enemy is prone type thing would be simple to do (assuming prone is in) and very beneficial tactic wise. In depth tactics such as having armour affect the likelihood of trips (like gaining a bonus to defending against trip attacks, but a penalty to the time it takes to get up when tripped when wearing heavy armour) would be awesome too. Also having the terrain affect this would be great, not just 'slope or higher ground', but the type of ground (loose rocks, wet slate, grass, running water, puddles) as well.

I'll do more when I don't have to run and entertain people.

Hajo · Jan 4, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
Most of this stuff relates to ranged characters. What about melee tactics? Any thoughts?

Push your opponent off-balance (a shield bash maybe, a wrestling move or a kick). He get's a roll to see if he falls.

Fallen:
- no attack in the first turn after fall
- penalty to attacks in the following turns
- big penalty to defense while being on ground
- getting up again takes a turn

Off-balance
- one turn to recover
- penalty to defense
- penalty to attack

If you have attributes like piercing, cutting and impact damage and weapons offering multiple attacks, tactics can inlcude to choose the right attack - e.g. a dagger can offer stab (good pierce, medium cut, low impact) and slash (low piercing, godd cutting, medium impact)

If your games allows it, you can try to stun the opponent instead of killing him. Might be easier, stun him and run for cover, or stun him and attack him while he's helpless.

Aimed attacks - try to find weaknesses in your opponents armor: he has a a breast plate, but no leg mail? Aim at the legs.

Poke his eyes with your fingers (results in a -3 penalty of the "hero" reputation, but may save your ass). Run while your opponent is blinded.

Try to break the opponents weapon. E.g. ancient swords were vulnerable to axe blows against the blade, and later on ther have been weapons being made to disarm the opponent (able to catch the sword and wind it out the opponents hadns).

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

Eclecticist said:
Bluffing could be an interesting addition.

I have thought of doing something like that considering that there is no magic in combat, but decided not to as such tactics wouldn't work on PC. There are sudden attacks though that are accessible via dialogues. They give you a bonus to hit and higher critical chance if you manage to get close enough to your target while talking / intimidating / bluffing, etc.

You've already confirmed the disarm/fumble option, which is good, but I don't think you've commented on trip attacks.

No trip attacks at this point, unless you count catching a hammer in the chest and flying several hexes away.

In depth tactics such as having armour affect the likelihood of trips (like gaining a bonus to defending against trip attacks, but a penalty to the time it takes to get up when tripped when wearing heavy armour) would be awesome too.

That actually sounds pretty cool. Haven't thought of that.

Hajo said:
Fallen / Off-balance

That reminds me of wrestling too much (defending on the ground, recovery, etc).

If you have attributes like piercing, cutting and impact damage and weapons offering multiple attacks, tactics can inlcude to choose the right attack - e.g. a dagger can offer stab (good pierce, medium cut, low impact) and slash (low piercing, godd cutting, medium impact)

I like different damage attributes, but I don't have that in the game.

If your games allows it, you can try to stun the opponent instead of killing him. Might be easier, stun him and run for cover, or stun him and attack him while he's helpless.

Yeah, you can stun. In fact, combat ends with your opponent being knocked out, not dead. Then you can kill him by delivering a death blow, if that's what you want, with all the consequences of that action.

Try to break the opponents weapon. E.g. ancient swords were vulnerable to axe blows against the blade, and later on ther have been weapons being made to disarm the opponent (able to catch the sword and wind it out the opponents hadns).

No breaking, but there are disarm attacks with some weapons.

Hajo · Jan 4, 2005

Some more ideas

- Consider armor breaching effects of weapons
- Some weapons like a whip or the morningstar type with a spiked ball, chain and a stick may allow to bypass a shield
- No wrestling move, but a whip can also be used to get opponents off the feet
- Noise can attract additional enemies - try to fight noiseless
- Penalty for being surrounded
- Maybe a bonus for fighting a cornered enemie
- Consider weapon ranges - halberd vs dagger
- Weapon recovery time, depending on attack and fighting style?
- Poisoned weapons?
- aim at armor joints?
- Lure enemy into terrain that benefits you but hinders him?
- Prepare traps and lure your opponent into them.
- futuristic (electric, acoustic) short-range shocking wepaons
- smoke bombs (or bright flashes to temporarily blind the unwary)
- poison/stunning gas (grenades)
- molotov cocktails
- throwing weapons like daggers, knives, throwing stars, poisoned darts, chakras, choking ropes, open cans of grinded pepper, bags of salt, sand and all the other mean and nasty stuff?
- use of trained animals, e.g. some wolves, or just dangerous animals - throw a poisoneous snake after your opponents or some spiders?

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

Hajo said:
Consider armor breaching effects of weapons

That I have. Armor gives Damage Resistance (vs higher AC in many games, for example), and there are weapons that have higher penetration value reducing DR.

Some weapons like a whip or the morningstar type with a spiked ball, chain and a stick may allow to bypass a shield

That's a good idea.

No wrestling move, but a whip can also be used to get opponents off the feet

I don't really have any equivalent of a whip or a chain at this point, but perhaps I should look into that.

Noise can attract additional enemies - try to fight noiseless

The way I see it, you either kill your opponent instantly (the assassin way) or they call for help. You may be able to fight quitely, but your enemies won't.

Penalty for being surrounded

I see your point, but it sounds too harsh, considering that you are all alone, and often would fight multiple enemies. It's like a constant penalty. I know that you can move away or try to find a good position where surrounding you is difficult or impossible, but that sounds like too much work for a player, imo. It works better in a party-based setup where you can use other party members to flank others, or to protect your own from being flanked.

Maybe a bonus for fighting a cornered enemie

That would imply that there are ways to corner an enemy, force him to retreat, etc. I don't have anything like that at this point.

Consider weapon ranges - halberd vs dagger

I have that.

Weapon recovery time, depending on attack and fighting style?

It's an AP system, like Fallout. Each attack costs Action Points. Recovery time/reload time is reflected in APs.

Poisoned weapons?

I have that. Poisoning weapons is a part of crafting / alchemy

aim at armor joints?

Impossible. That's what technically certain DR-reducing weapons do. Some can bash armor some can go through weak joints or chain links.

Lure enemy into terrain that benefits you but hinders him?

That's what I'm working on now (trying to see how that would work, and whether it would be fun). It has a lot of potential, like forcing a guy with a 2H sword fight you in a narrow space thus switching to a less formidable weapon. The question is how to implement it properly. Take a stealth route in many games for example. I hate that they just put vent ducts everywhere. Kinda lame.

Prepare traps and lure your opponent into them.

I have that. Plenty of traps. You can even trap a door, then knock, and run away.

futuristic (electric, acoustic) short-range shocking wepaons

Can't have that. Fantasy only.

smoke bombs (or bright flashes to temporarily blind the unwary

That would be very cool, and should work with alchemy. I will look into that.

- poison/stunning gas (grenades)

I have poison powder (gas would be too advanced for the period)

molotov cocktails

Greek fire is in, and I'm pretty sure it could be made into a throwable item.

throwing weapons like daggers, knives, throwing stars, poisoned darts, chakras, choking ropes, open cans of grinded pepper, bags of salt, sand and all the other mean and nasty stuff?

You can throw a lot of stuff in the game. Choking rope sounds lovely, but with a limited animation it probably wouldn't work.

use of trained animals, e.g. some wolves, or just dangerous animals - throw a poisoneous snake after your opponents or some spiders?

A snake sounds good. Very assassin-ish. Thanks, Hajo.

rob · Jan 4, 2005

ok,
I have spare time in my hand so I throw in my opinion, did not go carefully through the previous post so sorry if it is somewhat redundant.
I partially agree that melee based tb with a single character might be somewhat less tactical than I like, so to avoid the clickuntildeadusingstrongestweapon boredom I think it is important to have as many options as possible. for close combat I would try to give has much importance as possible to position: different bonus for high ground, fighting cornered,
flanking and rear attack. This said, considered that probably most of the time the pc will be outnumbered I think that interrupts are a good idea (the baddies try to flank, you chop back) and would be nice indeed being able to stun, trip, disarm, side step.
Having something like if you fight with a pike or a two handed sword you can keep the baddies far so they do not outmaneuvre you easily, and if you fight with a dagger you can get really close (behind the guard) and even grab of one of them, so that if the others attack might hit the guy you are close two, would add options. you have a pike and face three guy armed with swords: keep them far and nail them, if one manages to get through you guard is bad; you have a dagger and the three have spears, dash in and gut one, the others can just look.
If you attack a guy in overwatch this might prevent the interrupt.
also, please let me not only move and then attack but also first attack and then move (is maybe the only thing I don't like of toee combat), this adds options: circular swing with two handed sword at the usual 3 baddies to keep then busy and prevent interrupts then step back to avoid being flanked in the next turn.
I would like to be able to kick or something like this while I am using a weapon.3 guys facing me, I kick or push back or whatever way you like the one in the center, step forward, now I flank the one on my left and right side, I gut them... until next turn when I am flanked, uoops. An skill like this might be used also when charging, etc.
Daydreaming, would love to be able to use an enemy as a shield, to impale him, to slow him down if a ranged weapon stick to his body.
To get to the end of this rather obvious rant, in 1to1 close combat put the enphasys on getting into the guard of the enemy, agains more than 1 give options to use and change position, all of this also requires being able to do different things with different weapons.

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

rob said:
This said, considered that probably most of the time the pc will be outnumbered I think that interrupts are a good idea (the baddies try to flank, you chop back) and would be nice indeed being able to stun, trip, disarm, side step.

Wouldn't several interrupts per turn be too powerful? In ToEE combat reflexes was a deadly skill.

Having something like if you fight with a pike or a two handed sword you can keep the baddies far so they do not outmaneuvre you easily

You can do that, but only once per turn. You get an interrupt attack that if successful forces your opponent to stay away.

also, please let me not only move and then attack but also first attack and then move

It's an AP system. What you do with your APs is your business.

Daydreaming, would love to be able to use an enemy as a shield, to impale him, to slow him down if a ranged weapon stick to his body.

You can impale and immobilize an enemy. That works only with melee weapons.

all of this also requires being able to do different things with different weapons.

You can. Each weapon has its own traits that could be useful to different characters.

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