Vault Dweller said:
Ahhh, it burns, flaming sneak-attack! lol
Dice rolls or RNG are definitely random, BUT! - and that's an important "but", that's where you skills come into play. As you get better, and your skills get higher, the outcomes shift from depending on lucky random rolls to skills high enough to balance out most unlucky rolls. Example: you need to hit a guy with AC 20. When you suck and have only 2-3 "to hit", the outcome is random. When you have 15-17 plus buffs, you are almost guaranteed a successful hit due to your skills, feats, and buffs management.
No, sorry. You still don't seem to understand.
Look, it is still random even if it is influenced by skills. You are still rolling a dice to determine the outcome. You have shifted the odds to your favor with higher skills, but even you admit success is not gauranteed. You _could_ roll badly several times in a row and still fail that way.
You are never removing the randomness from the system.
There was one module in NWN I played where you walked into a room fool of Bodaks. My Fort save was well above what it needed to be to be safe, but I would _always_ die within three rounds just because of the sheer number of attempts they had and critical failure.
That is random.
Uh, I think you did. May I present the Court exhibit A:
"...the success of various actions being determined by random factors rather than player reflexes and coordination"
Yes, nitpicking will definately prove you are correct.
Success IS determined by random factors. If it weren't, you would not roll dice.
You're skills influence that roll, but success is still determined by that random factor.
First of all, it's still difficulty, only the insufficient level of it, from your point of view, and second, it's silly to build your argument about genres and game systems on level 1 characters. It's like saying that an FPS is too easy because you have only one gun and can kill everyone with it in the first game level.
Anyway, ok, lvl1 char can spot a lvl 20 char. And? No degree of randomness can help him to kill a lvl 20 character. No way, no how. So, it's not as random as you speak.
I'm not building my argument on that... I'm trying to explain what randomness is to you at this point.
And we weren't talking about killing the level 20 char. However, if the level 20 char is badly injured and the level 1 char gets initiative, then rolls a natural 20 he might very well take out that level 20 char. Personally, I don't think there should be any way for a level 1 char to injure a level 20 char... just doesn't make sense to me. But that's what you get with randomness and critical success/failure.
Nice cop-out. Obviously, I don't think that you have elaborated enough. So, if you can find some time in your otherwise busy schedule to present your position in a thoughtful manner, I'd appreciate that.
*groan*
Simply put, you can put roleplaying into any other genre of game at least as much as you can into normal CRPGs. This does not make those other games CRPGs however. If you took heavy storyline elements, and large branching dialogs and choices which affected the storyline, then went and injected all of that into an NHL Hockey game you would have a Sports game rather than an RPG. Therefore those elements do not make a game an RPG.
Further, the original CRPGs were very light on storyline and had almost non-existant dialog, and absolutely no gameplay or story affecting choices.
Since those were CRPGs without having those elements, which you consider the ability to roleplay, we must define the term without it requiring roleplay.
The term, of course, comes more from the fact that these games descended from true RPGs such as D&D. It is more of a reference to their forbears than a statement of what they are, and this is perhaps why many people get confused.
Many people, in fact, look at the heavy storyline and dialog (though not necessarily choices) in most modern RPGs and infer that this is what makes up an RPG. Then they go on to call games like The Legend of Zelda an RPG, which irks me to no end since Zelda is an Action Adventure title.
Worse yet, to the limited extent you can roleplay on a computer you are actually playing a role in every game you play. I never delivered papers in my life for instance, but for 50 cents I was the best paperboy in the world for a good 10 minutes or so! However that does not make every game an RPG either.
Aha, so, let me get this straight. MMORPGs are true rpgs because you can say any stupid thing you actually want, but games like Fallout and Arcanum are not, in fact, RPGs? Ookay.
I did not say those games were not RPGs. I said you could not roleplay in them. Why can't you guys seperate the two things I am saying?
Remember I am demonstrated that roleplaying is not required in a CRPG! So when I say that you can not roleplay in a game I am not saying the game is not an RPG.
However, as I have explained above, even with your definition of roleplaying it is not required for a game to be a CRPG.
Well, that's nitpicking, imo, and that could be easily fixed by adding a "continue" option in addition to a longer "I understand. Tell me more" response. It's not really an issue, it's like saying that my character must wear red pants, as his whole identity revolves around red pants and without such pants he's nothing! NOTHING!" lol, and since the game doesn't have any red pants, it's not an RPG.
Riiigggghhhhttttt.
Not being able to act the way my character should be acting is exactly the same as not having red pants. It all makes perfect sense now!
Really? I can sneak past many monsters? I can beat the game by sneaking? Can I pick locks on closed doors? Can I talk to them to? To answer your question, if someone adds options that, as per my definition, allow players to handle situations differently, and throw in skills that would go with that, then yeah, it would be a cool little game.
At least you stopped yourself from saying it would be an RPG. But whether or not it would be an RPG is the question isn't it?
I doubt you could beat Quake entirely by sneaking, but I'm almost positive you could avoid some fights if you wanted to. Point being, you can roleplay. Complaining that you can't pick likes is like complaining that there are no red pants!
Of course, I agree, but if you paid attention, I also said "a character system, situations that could be handled differently...". If a game can do all that plus good dialogues, then I would call it an RPG.
But very few RPGs through time have had those things.
And if you are still shooting things with a bazooka and aiming with your mouse I wouldn't consider it an RPG, because the fundamental gameplay is different no matter how many situations could be handled differently or how strong the character system is.
Wait a second, didn't you like argue a minute ago that there are no role-playing in RPGs, or are you talking about names only?
Huh? I am talking about the term CRPG which we are trying to define here. Those games are CRPGs, despite not having what you consider to be roleplay elements.
Rather idiotic examples, don't you think? People around the water fountains simply should n't be in games. As for the barmaid, if she could help you somehow, then the proper options should be there. If you just want to say hi and have a mindless chat, but can't, it doesn't mean that role-playing in this game sucks.
It means the RP is nonexistant.
However it does not mean the game is not an RPG.
The helping people on the opposite sides of the fountain is in many games, at least several FF games and nI think some others... but it is also a metaphor for many other very simple things a character might want to help with but cannot.
You can call it bad design, but developers will never be able to put in every possible option for a game.
That's why you have live DMs, because they can handle whatever crazy idea you come up with in real time by adapting.
That is why yo uneed other people to roleplay with, because they can roleplay their own responses to anything you decide your character should say. And you can do the same.
Picking options from an ever diminishing list of choices is not roleplaying, it's reading a choose your own adventure book.
).
