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Put up or shut up - What is needed in MMOs to fix them

DarkSign

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Ok I keep reading that all MMOs suck. They arent as creative as MUDs. They arent as responsive as they should be. Your character development isnt as good as CRPGs.

Well lets have it. I want everyone to explain just what is needed to make an MMO as close to bloody perfect as possible.

This is a challenge. If you merely come on here and say "they cant be fixed" or "this isnt worth the effort" then you lose. Build an argument. Defend it. Put your grey matter to work. If the community doesnt fix the problem, no one will.

I await your response.
 

Tiliqua

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
151
Good reply Astromarine, obviously this topic has been covered in detail.

MMOs would be lots better if:
1 -Combat is meaningful, ie if you're killed you don't immediately respawn and continue fighting. I would also like the ability to force factions/Guilds etc away from any particular area by being able to destroy their cities/dwellings. I'm thinking of SWG in this regard, as it was very annoying to have to tolerate a city of a different faction just next to ours
2 -Typing is consigned to the trash bin of yesterdays technology and VoIP is standard.
3 -Crafting at lower levels is useful, otherwise you're encouraged to grind.

Turbine who are doing D&D Online are giving XP for finishing quests and not for killing monsters. That will stop camping which is another MMO problem.

MMOs can be great fun but it's tough if you have to spend hours each day just to create a viable character. I look after 3 boys and have a full time job, I just can't devote the time needed in MMOs such as EQ or SWG, so for me a MMO has to be fun even if I only play once or twice a week.

Roleplaying is a big problem, most people, (regardless of what they say on various Boards), are power gamers and are totally focussed on loot and levels. Don't stand between gamers and a powerful item, you'll be killed in the rush. That's why I like to play with friends who at least will put some effort into roleplaying as oppossed to strangers who normally disappoint.

In SWG I was staggered at how many people ripped off their online friends, how many people hoarded, how many people were just in a PA for the advantages but contributed bugger all.

So that for me are some of the problems of MMOs - and many of these problems are not easily overcome. I do have some hope for D&D Online however.
 

Astromarine

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Jan 21, 2003
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I'm sick of people making roleplayers and poworgamers to be mutually exclusive. In EVE online I think we have the perfect balance, the PVP is huge, and the devs encourage it, but still lots of people roleplay while doing the massive gankfests the game is known for (fleet battles 40 to a side are not uncommon). Some of the best PVPers and powergamers play pilots in an empire of slavers, and others play freed slaves. It makes for very characterful battles. I roleplay the ultimate businessman with one of my chars, and he worries about money and sucess more than anything, but he has been known to write huge in-character diatribes about his and his corporation's poits of view. It's just not that black and white, except for 14 year olds more interested in calling each other griefers and carebears than in actual playing.
 

Tiliqua

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
151
I don't necessarily think of powergamers and roleplayers as mutually exclusive, but I do seem to come across a lot of powergamers who aren't interested in roleplaying. My problem is that I come across many people who claim to be fantastic roleplayers but who when put to the test fail miserably.

No doubt Astro you're a great roleplayer and let's face it, it's actually amazing that there aren't more roleplayers out there, because roleplaying isn't exactly rocket science. I'm glad that your MMO experiences are filled with roleplaying moments with fellow gamers, unfortunately I haven't had your good fortune.
 

Astromarine

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Til, this rant was not geared at you. You just set it off with your mention of powergamers, but you are not the target.

I'm nota good roleplayer. but my point is that, much like people in the thread that I linked, I put some of the burden of the prob/em on the backs of roleplayers. Sure, it goes without saying that the people that play the game as if it was counterstrike with swords ruin it for everybody, but so do the people who think the height of roleplaying in what are, by definition, combat games means REMOVING yourself from the combat.

What I was trying to say in my previous post was that the way to approach a game is to study it's limitations first, and then to make a character to work within those limitations. That is why I don't get disappointed with roleplaying content in games.

EVE is the best example. I made two characters in the game. One where I roleplayed purely out of game (in forums and such) while simply playing it to the best of my ability. Then I stopped using that char, made a new one based on the stuff I learned, joined people I knew were serious and had fun with roleplay, and played that char as 100% IC. This I plan to do in all games I play.

What annoys me is the guys who want to pigeonhole everything, and if they are attacked complain about someone has intruded in their roleplaying session and ruined it for them. They want to enter a world with over 1000 people and be in complete control of their lives, which is completely unreasonable. As unreasonable as those idiots who seem to think everyone should be interested in making the game fun for said idiots, as if everyone else was just another stupid mob.

I like the focus of WoW on quests, the big possibilities of EVE with the agent missions, and the supposed quests of DnD online. The reason I think those are important, and I think more and more games will have that kind of content, is to change the "feeling" of people just starting the game. Without that kind of content, the games feel like CS. With it, the games feel more like actual SP RPGs like BG and such (not Fallout. Meaningful choice in quests is still a ways off)
 

Section8

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Well, a few points here and there, of the strong points of existing MMOGs and some what ifs. In no particular order, and probably far from a summary of THE Ultimate MMOG.

Part One - The Fucking Obvious

  • A broad consumer base / Mass appeal - For any MMOG to be successful, it needs people. Starting from the simplicity of stress testing, right through beta dev stages up to becoming a paying customer, the golden rule is, the more the better. The beta stages are crucial, because they not only define your target audience, but also helps to define your product, and paying customers mean a constant influx of funds.

    But aside from the purely mercenary reasons, a broad consumer base is a big advantage for the players. The whole point of multiplayer gaming is human interaction through a computer proxy, and so no matter what time zone you're in, having people to share your multiplayer experience is a great benefit. And more importantly, it increases the chances of finding friends and acquaintances with similar timeframes to play in.

    Swinging back slightly to the corporate side, a game that is well supported by consumers should in turn be able to provide a good solid support base, from billing and CSRs to live teams and other dev monkeys.

    Last but not least, the tech specs should be kept modest. Hardcore gamers are ill defined in the MMOG world, and someone clocking 16 hours a day on a min spec rig probably doesn't consider themselves hardcore. And by the usual stereotype, they're not.
  • Likeminded Individuals and the means to find them - It really helps in a MMOG to establish yourself within communities and sub -groupings. At the highest level, servers with variant rules should be provided for those with a different slant on how the game should be played. Roleplay only servers and PvP dedicated servers are essential. Within the server itself, subgroups of guilds and alliances are a no-brainer, as is an effective personal contact list. On a micro level, being able to establish and build groups easily relieves the monotony of solo play.

    But as I alluded to in the previous point, all of these mechanisms to improve the overall social experience are useless if you can't find likeminded individuals on a regular basis. Somewho dedicates an extra hour or two each day will outgrow you, meaning your social interaction becomes limited to messaging, and generally the most rewarding experiences are the times when you do actually experience happenings with your friends/acquaintances. Someone in a different time zone experiences similar difficulties keeping up regular contact with friends.

    Finally, one of the most important social aspects: A sense of belonging. Finding a guild that both the player and their character can fit in with is essential to the MMOG experience. It gives you a solid community grounding and an online "family".
  • A comfortable/enjoyable environment and rapid resolution of infringements upon player "rights" - It's not just enough to give the player ample means to connect with their birds of a feather, but the player must also be able to feel at ease within the general environs. Once again, at the top level, this comes down to providing servers with extended rulesets to reward and punish certain player behaviours. On a personal scale, the player should have a good many easy to configure tools to employ to protect them from a "hostile" society. Filters are the classic example, allowing players to censor "offensive" language, but also to filter anything that detracts from their idea of the setting, generally forced expansion of acronyms (ie "LFG"->"Looking for group"), or standardising emotes (ie ":)" -> "<smiles>"). Then there are ban/mute/ignore lists, etc.

    In addition to ways players can protect their gaming experience, rapid CSR intervention and a solid set of rules of conduct are essential. Certain hostilities and harassment cannot be prevented on a strictly player to player basis, so timely intervention and effective forms of punishment help to keep the sheep in line. Punitive actions should be kept strict to the point of being harsh so the society is ruled by fear. (of account suspension/cancellation for instance) It may mean the loss of some paying customers, but a little oppression can be good for the masses. Please keep to the right.
  • Seamless patching, limited nerfing - More on the obvious stuff. Keep the down times low and the bugs minute, with rapid fixes. If it means doubling the size of your live QA team, then do it. If it means longer beta schedules, do it. The extra outlay will save you in the long run, because a good rep for patching is worth it's weight in gold. It makes occasional errors forgivable, and on the whole keeps players more willing to give that "one last chance" before they give up on your product.

    Most importantly in this point, A Clean Launch of betas and shipped versions. The first few hours of play time (hopefully the ones you're offering free with each game purchase!) are the defining moment. If a player has connection problems or bug issues in their first play experiences, it's not too late to send the game back and trade it in for something else. Not to mention the tsunami of negative hype that will spread like wildfire across the 'net.
  • An affordable, one size fits all package - There should be no players looked upon favourably for their actions outside of the game, and it's completely unreasonable to ask players to cough up a higher fee for the gaming experience they deserve in the first place. Premium my arse. The only thing a player should feel jealous about are better characters than theirs. It sets an achievable goal that keeps them on the treadmill.

That's about all I can think of for Part One so far. I'll get my brain into gear for Part Two at a later date, since I haven't even touched on gameplay elements yet, or fresh new ideas to revolutionise the future of gaming by providing a truly immersive experience.

Disclaimer: Last comment written by PR department. Direct complaints to my secretary.
 

Sol Invictus

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Oct 19, 2002
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Pax Romana
DarkSign said:
Ok I keep reading that all MMOs suck. They arent as creative as MUDs. They arent as responsive as they should be. Your character development isnt as good as CRPGs.

Well lets have it. I want everyone to explain just what is needed to make an MMO as close to bloody perfect as possible.

This is a challenge. If you merely come on here and say "they cant be fixed" or "this isnt worth the effort" then you lose. Build an argument. Defend it. Put your grey matter to work. If the community doesnt fix the problem, no one will.

I await your response.

You might want to check out all of my posts pertaining to this subject before telling us off. I've suggested many of the faults of MMORPGs and how they can be fixed, as have many of the beta testers currently playing World of Warcraft. However, Blizzard has refused to listen to us and instead they prefer to cater to the 'uberguild' crowd which prefer uncreative classes (holy trinity, anyone? tank, damage, healer) over open class development, they don't like utility classes (hybrids always get fucked in the endgame because of the difficulty of the monsters), and they love their downtime. Apparently resting after each monster kill is a 'challenge' and thus good for 'gameplay'.

You know what? I give up. Until MMO developers decide to listen to casual gamers there's just no point in playing an MMORPG. They think that the money's at those imbeciles who buy 3-4 accounts and register to play for 3 years, so they cater to that crowd (which is a minority in all accounts). It's their loss for not supporting the casual gamer crowd, which would probably make up 89% of their sales if the games were any good. You'll notice that MMORPGs don't have any more than 50k total subscribers at any given time. That's a petty sum in comparison to what it could be.

As a response to Section Eight's post: Blizzard has failed in all regards.

Blizzard seems focused on catering to the minority 'hardcore powergamer uberguild' crowd opposed to the mass market. Therefore, the game is treadmill trash.

Patching in WOW is limited to bi-monthly patches that change the game considerably enough that it seems like you're playing a completely different game due to the rehauls. This is much cause for irritation because classes end up getting nerfed/boosted up the ass. The uberguilders and fanboys excuse is that Blizzard is 'tuning balance' by hitting the complete opposite sides of the balance spectrum every time until they get a 'good ratio'. What a load of crap. Some classes are left imbalanced for months before they're fixed and classes like the Warrior have been made useless for the past 2 months. Warlocks for 9 months. Balance, yeah. Right.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Behind you.
Tiliqua said:
Turbine who are doing D&D Online are giving XP for finishing quests and not for killing monsters. That will stop camping which is another MMO problem.

And it will piss a lot of people off depending on how long the quests can take, especially if the rest of your party is dragging and you have to head out for dinner or something. You can't just pop in for a casual session with a system like that, and if there is much variance to the questing system at all, you're not going to know how long it will take to get one done.

It'll also introduce the whole problem of reward cowards. Why not just split from combat if you're not getting any XP from it but there's the possibility of dying? Let some other moron do the combat.

You're just taking one problem and replacing it with another.
 

Human Shield

Augur
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Sep 7, 2003
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VA, USA
Why isn't everything role-playing? If the character has a freedom to do something, then why not design a path for the action. I think role-playing mindset needs to move away from the chat bar, who cares what words you are saying, they don't effect anything. If a player wants to randomly kill people, then fine, single player games always have random bad guys; it is the game's fault for letting them get powerful and having no consequences.

My solution:

A PvP based open world, turn-based MMORPG with permanent death.

Setting

Post-apocalyptic wasteland. Low backstory to get in the way, unknown previous tech level. Life based on towns and camps. A setting where random murderers and gangs would help the setting.

Class/Sub-class/Survival-style based system

Three Classes: Warrior, Sage, Special. Each corresponding to the three skill groups: Combat skills, knowledge skills, and special skills like tracking, stealth, disguise etc...

Each skill group has several skills.

Sub-Classes are different skill combos within each skill group. Classes can cross train between the groups but the maximum level they can get will usually be lower then starting on the parent class for that skill group.

Survival-style choice at start is between town citizen, raider, or wanderer. Towns produce what they need, Raiders take with they need, Wanderers do odd jobs.

Towns can fight each other if they really want to declare war (getting there in a large group would be hard). Raiders can attack towns, wanderers, and other raider clans if they want. Towns and wanderers don't fight (towns can deny entry). Wanderers don't fight each other. To attack someone you aren't supposed to, you would have to switch
styles first.

Wanderers can become a raider or citizen of a certain town according to their actions. Citizens can become wanderers. Raiders can become wanderers if their reputation is good enough (didn't kill people, completed some contracts). Towns grow, wanderers take jobs, and raiders have mobile camps and limited production.

Starting out/ in game world

Instantly start with good abilities (create character that isn't a retard at age 23 and god at 23.5). Single player style advancement from weak to superstrong doesn't work in a multiplayer environment, they want to you waste time.

New character skill level will slowly rise as game goes on to stay competitive.
Skills have a hard-cap (move with time) according to class.
New skills could appear (The game world is actually moving forward)
[Example: As technology increases, throwing spears would become more common then when guns are found, firearms skills slowly becomes more common]

Character creation sets random or pre-set-limits human name, nickname is free.

No magic, no res.
Any skill progress that a player makes in an area is permanent to that player.
At death, the character is gone and is put in player's graveyard menu with journal or whatever.
The sub-class and reputation of the character is locked out for a month, they have to play a wanderer or opposite reputation. This blocks them from doing reputation changing actions for a month.
After a month they can play the sub-class with all of the skill progress they made, and rejoin the locked out reputation but cannot rejoin their exact previous town or raider clan for an additional month.
The new character must have different name, and will start as an unknown.

Towns and Camps

Towns are controlled by the mayor (any class). New players that choose to be a Town Citizen are assigned to a town according to what the town needs. Constructing buildings, defences, and mining/farming are important. If the town doesn't approve of what a citizen is doing (or not doing) they can cut rations/pay or banish the player from the town.

Towns are run by players and have set rules, being a jerk leads to banishment; killing really requires combat. There would be no pickpocketing (no careless nobles), stealing involves armed robbery and/or assault.

If the character is in his hometown then they get a survivablitity rating increase (having doctors around you also increases this), going to critical condition (unconscience, broken bones) will be more common then death in a guarded town.

Doing stuff

Each Non-combat sub-class covers a lot of areas (knowledge in post-apoc would be gathered among select 'Sages') that they would stay occupied with: teaching others skills, surveying, managing resources, crafting, learning, researching, helping construction, repair and equip people, explore other areas, travel and trade. Sages would be skilled in all those areas (skill min for them would be max for others), sub-classes would be specialized but all could help out in any area, no 'merchant class' just those skilled in managing equipment and examining items.

Fighting and travel is a big part of the world. Trade routes benefit both sides if they can travel around but they have to deal with raiders. And exploring can gain riches and technology.

Progress

Research and artifacts are required to increase technology (real-time days). The landscape changes and revealing new artifacts is left up to developers.
Food and water is needed.
Recovering from a fight uses a doctor, or resting in base.
Limit on how much a skill can gain in a day + hard cap.
Environment barriers that spell death and sickness.

Progress would be based around towns, and town population is limited by food/water. If one town is progressing fast raiders would be alerted. And the weather/water/minerals can go sour in a rich town or turn good in a poor town.

World Map and Turn-based Combat

Travel is done through a worldmap (shrew traveling for hours, as long as there is danger).

Players are asked if they want to enter a combat zone (area on world map or town/camp). Turns would be faction based, so the entire town would move then all raiders, and smaller groups have less time to give all commands (so a single fighter has to think fast and doesn't slow down others). And there would be a limit on more groups walking in. Areas would be small. Escaping would involve comparing different values (non-combat classes get bonuses) and location, time units would be chosen to be put into 'escape' at edge of map and the strength of both sides decides units needed. And charging at someone gives bonus distance (to avoid constant turn, run, turn).

A lone traveler would have to travel on caution mode to help avoid being surrounded, and escape would involve surviving in the fight long enough.

Raiders and Monsters

Raiders could set up circles of cover on the worldmap over land areas and set demands: demand goods, services, or try to surprise attack (forward scouts help).

Players can ask for mercy or offer money (done with tree-branch dialouge) to an attacking group, if they first tried to fight them it would be harder and less raider penatlies for rejecting. Player raiders also can set demands to be paid for mercy.

Critically wounding someone that is offering all they own would have a large reputation effect and a decrease in the raider's skills.
Killing a non-combat class that is not a threat would decrease the raider's skill.

Cutting apart a merchant wouldn't help raider's train their skill and would cause them to lose their fighting edge with over-confidence, decreasing their skill.

So a lone griefer would die trying to attack someone in a town causing no death to others, or would die trying to attack a guarded caravan alone. They would need the backing of a town to get better weapons and skill gaps aren't that important. And killing someone peaceful would hurt his skills (grab items thou). Killing also gives one a reputation which can be good or bad.

Combined with permenant in-game characters (staying at a town under custom AI control while logged-off), and a bounty hunter system, murders would help the gameplay.

Killing a merchant hurts his town and they have to replace him with someone less skilled or wait a month for a new "character" that doesn't have a sales record. Killing a raider would mean one less raider for a month and a possible unknown raider after that.

Beasts are not a big part of the game, only exist past environmental barriers, and usually cause critical wounds to limbs over death.

Special Differences from other MMORPGs

Use of branching diolouge trees between players, making contracts and deals using ingame means. This makes turn-based combat important because deals can be exchanged for ceasefire and talking within a group during the enemies turn is important.

Player created contracts, job offers, and marketplaces easy to access.
Town communities have to work to survive and raiders fight together, that is the best way to build friendship. But there is heavy turn-around so everyone has to meet and work with new people, so new players aren't left in the cold and old players can't stay in a shell. There is much less group barriers which stagnants a community.

Justice systems are hard in MMORPGs. I don't think imprisonment should ever be an option, either they can't log in and play their role as a criminal in the game for a while or they stay logged in over night and clear time. This is why I think harsh settings help MMORPGs because banishment from a town would mean facing the dangers outside or the death penalty would be in wide use because resources are too rare to spend on jails.
 

fnordcircle

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Frowning at my monitor as I read your dumb post.
Exitium said:
Permadeath? Good luck pitching that to anyone.

It's what makes the best muds, if you ask me (cough www.armageddon.org cough).

It will happen, just not anytime soon. Once people get past the notion of 'omg all my work gone!' and realize that a 6 month old character is a real accomplishment versus the monotony of the level treadmill, it might even go mainstream.
 

Human Shield

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You aren't lossing any skills or having to redo anything, there is no treadmill. Just have to start a new character.

Starting a new character in armageddon was a pain. It isn't new-player friendly at all. You start alone and lost, part of the fault lies in lack of GUI but it is great text game.
 

Tiliqua

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
151
I can understand why permadeath is never going to be a goer, however death has to be meaningful or else the game becomes a joke. I would like to see a time penalty of 2-3 hrs and relocation of the character from where it died.
 

Human Shield

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DON'T FORCE PLAYERS TO DO THE SAME SHIT OVER AND OVER, REMOVE LEVEL TREADMILLS!

Why do you want more goblins you have to kill in a row to level up after death? Or more quests you have to do over and over. If the game world is freeform instead of linear, then there is not so much of a difference between continuing a character and starting a new one, there is always something meaningful to do.
 

Sarvis

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Tiliqua said:
I can understand why permadeath is never going to be a goer, however death has to be meaningful or else the game becomes a joke. I would like to see a time penalty of 2-3 hrs and relocation of the character from where it died.

I was working on a mud once where I suggested an afterlife. Basically when you died you'd become a ghost and be in the Underworld. In order to come back to life you would have to complete special quests and such in the Underworld, and find a place where you could reincarnate.

I thought it would be really cool, but the main imm hated the idea... :(

What do you guys think?

Human Shield

How would you do turn based in an online world? I've given this some thought and was never able to come up with a good solution. You can't have everything like walking through dungeons and movement be turn based, 50K turns would take a LONG time. But if you allow free movement among anyone not in combat, you either have to restrict them from joining fights already in progress or run the risk of people running halfway across the world to help their friends.
 

Human Shield

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VA, USA
How would you do turn based in an online world? I've given this some thought and was never able to come up with a good solution. You can't have everything like walking through dungeons and movement be turn based, 50K turns would take a LONG time. But if you allow free movement among anyone not in combat, you either have to restrict them from joining fights already in progress or run the risk of people running halfway across the world to help their friends.

Read what I wrote. Sides take turns within a combat zone, people coming in would be assigned to a current or a new team, or be restricted if enough teams are in the zone. Time to make choices would be limited. Standard fantasy dungeons wouldn't really exist.
 

DarkSign

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Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
I read the other thread and wanted some fresh discussion.

Im eagerly awaiting Section 8's Part Two (Im guessing of three with the second being gameplay and the third being customer service)

Keep the discussion going, guys.
 

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