Fable

Quigs · Jul 13, 2004

Owns all. Well it does!

Peter M. is nearly ready to release the best, and maybe first TRUE crpg to the world. sept 13th for those of us in the states.

Intense AI, as is common in all of molyneux's games. One example that I thought was incredible went like this. A town called to the hero to help them from an attacking troll. The hero had better things to do, and never showed up. Two townsfolk got frustrated that the hero never showed up, and slayed the troll themselves. They then got pridefull and began hunting monsters down, and later on got slayed in an ambush. ALL of that was due to the AI, none of it scripted. This is the only game I can remember where the game reacts to your actions directly, instead of changing based on trigger events.

IGN said it well (first time for everything, remember the orignal ign64? =P )

Have you ever played an RPG where children change their hair style to match yours, where bards sing songs of your deeds, and where you can get married and divorced if you start turning into a jerk? We havenâ€™t either, but we soon will.

Voss · Jul 14, 2004

Hmm, I'll have to check on this thread in a couple hours. It should be entertaining. Though people seem distracted by the Fallout news, so maybe not.
All I've got to say is , we'll see. Though I find your optimism... well, not refreshing. That other word. Naive.
This bit in particular is disturbing:

Intense AI, as is common in all of molyneux's games

He was involved in a lot of the Bullfrog stuff, right?

And out of curiousity... if the hero doesn' t show up, how does he know about the escapades of the villagers? You sure it isn't a scripted notice rather than AI? You know, X game days pass, event triggers, player notified...

And slayed. It isn't a word. They were slain, or the monsters slew them. Slayed... it just doesn't work.

plin · Jul 14, 2004

Meh, We'll see when the game comes out when we read the reviews and can review it ourselves. I for one am looking forward to it. Though I am very scepticle about it because of Peter Meeeeelookatmeee and his bullshit. But I am certainly not as quick to jump on the hate bandwagon like Exitium has when the game's not even out.

So bottom line from me is: We'll see.

I excpect nothing/anything, so I won't be dissapointed either way. But yay for the gaming world if it does end up being even above average. And oh well if it turns out to be in the shits.

Stark · Jul 14, 2004

Intense AI, as is common in all of molyneux's games. One example that I thought was incredible went like this. A town called to the hero to help them from an attacking troll. The hero had better things to do, and never showed up. Two townsfolk got frustrated that the hero never showed up, and slayed the troll themselves. They then got pridefull and began hunting monsters down, and later on got slayed in an ambush. ALL of that was due to the AI, none of it scripted. This is the only game I can remember where the game reacts to your actions directly, instead of changing based on trigger events.

I'll be VERY SURPRISED if indeed those events described above are not scripted. I've taken some AI modules (constraint programming, neural networks, knowledge based systems, mathematical programming) in post graduate courses and I do not think the state of technology has progressed that far yet. I believe the single event described above IS scripted, at least to a certain level. Maybe the "hunting monsters down" part is not scripted. just turn the villager's attitude to "aggressive" and they go out to hunt, and being lower level, they got killed.

Have you ever played an RPG where children change their hair style to match yours, where bards sing songs of your deeds, and where you can get married and divorced if you start turning into a jerk? We havenâ€™t either, but we soon will.

actually, I've seen the video clip. I'm not too impressed. the action is too arcady for my taste. the part about changing their hair style to mimic yours, erecting a statue of yours in the village, etc are most probably scripted events, and the end effect is very superficial.

I'm not bashing the game. I'm glad they're at least attempting new things in games. I'm cautious though and expect people to be let down somewhat when the game is out, due to the huge hype and all.

plin · Jul 14, 2004

Stark said:
Intense AI, as is common in all of molyneux's games. One example that I thought was incredible went like this. A town called to the hero to help them from an attacking troll. The hero had better things to do, and never showed up. Two townsfolk got frustrated that the hero never showed up, and slayed the troll themselves. They then got pridefull and began hunting monsters down, and later on got slayed in an ambush. ALL of that was due to the AI, none of it scripted. This is the only game I can remember where the game reacts to your actions directly, instead of changing based on trigger events.

Click to expand...

I'll be VERY SURPRISED if indeed those events described above are not scripted. I've taken some AI modules (constraint programming, neural networks, knowledge based systems, mathematical programming) in post graduate courses and I do not think the state of technology has progressed that far yet. I believe the single event described above IS scripted, at least to a certain level. Maybe the "hunting monsters down" part is not scripted. just turn the villager's attitude to "aggressive" and they go out to hunt, and being lower level, they got killed.

Have you ever played an RPG where children change their hair style to match yours, where bards sing songs of your deeds, and where you can get married and divorced if you start turning into a jerk? We havenâ€™t either, but we soon will.

Click to expand...

actually, I've seen the video clip. I'm not too impressed. the action is too arcady for my taste. the part about changing their hair style to mimic yours, erecting a statue of yours in the village, etc are most probably scripted events, and the end effect is very superficial.

I'm not bashing the game. I'm glad they're at least attempting new things in games. I'm cautious though and expect people to be let down somewhat when the game is out, due to the huge hype and all.

Isn't A.I. just a series of reactions and scripts? I love when people dislike a game because it's too "scripted".

I might be misunderstanding what A.I. is compared to scripts, but my understanding is it's just a series of scripts and reactions. But oh well, if I'm wrong, let me know and explain what the difference is. Thanks

Quigs · Jul 14, 2004

Voss, yes, and a little game called populous. Ever heard of it?

Maybe im a bit naive, but thats just all part of being optomistic. And a bad speller.

As far as knowing what happened or not, I suppose in game you would notice the characters were gone. BBB is claiming that no two npc's are alike, and there are NO text messages. they have over 22 thousand lines of spoken text, and expect to cram a few more before release. What I read was from the standpoint of some sort of bug testing mode, So apparantley the hero was'nt envolved at that time.

Stark, you would know the terminology more then me, but isnt AI just advanced unique scripting, with tendencies and favorites part of the mix? (pretty much what plin says) If thats the case, even people use scripting. Correct me when your ready =)

Action, its give or take. Im looking foward to it, but some folks who have trouble with anything not turn based, or just like FF style are gonna be dissapointed. Hype is relative. Halo 2 has more pre order money then most games ever make. Fable is pretty much a gaming community secret for the time being.

Quigs · Jul 14, 2004

Voss, yes, and a little game called populous. Ever heard of it?

Maybe im a bit naive, but thats just all part of being optomistic. And a bad speller.

As far as knowing what happened or not, I suppose in game you would notice the characters were gone. BBB is claiming that no two npc's are alike, and there are NO text messages. they have over 22 thousand lines of spoken text, and expect to cram a few more before release. What I read was from the standpoint of some sort of bug testing mode, So apparantley the hero was'nt envolved at that time.

Stark, you would know the terminology more then me, but isnt AI just advanced unique scripting, with tendencies and favorites part of the mix? (pretty much what plin says) If thats the case, even people use scripting. Correct me when your ready =)

Action, its give or take. Im looking foward to it, but some folks who have trouble with anything not turn based, or just like FF style are gonna be dissapointed. Hype is relative. Halo 2 has more pre order money then most games ever make. Fable is pretty much a gaming community secret for the time being.

Stark · Jul 14, 2004

actually those people working on "AI" hates the term "AI", because it is too wide a term to describe alot of different disiplines, and it carries a certain baggage.

one of my profs described it best when he said "AI is just a temporary term people use to describe a new field, before they found a more proper term for it".

it ranges from speech processing, langugage processing, fuzzy logic, neural network, knowledge based systems, contraint programming, evolutionary/genetic algo, etc. too many to list.

the "AI" that we're seeing in games these days are mostly scripted events, simply because other fields have not progressed sufficiently for realistic behaviour. Hence, when event A occurs, B triggers, etc.

some of these (neural networks and mathematical programming) are black boxes and you do not know the output until it is out. this is in contrast to scripting.

neural network has been used in some of the FPS games, in which the program analyses your combat moves and attempt to outsmart you. Again, these are still very primitive and may not work all the time.

the other good example is Black n White. Sadly i never played it but supposedly you can train your "pet" to do certain things. I believe the underlying engine has some neural network, plus alot of clever scripting, to make it work. I've read it doesn't always work. the pet "forgets" certain things too early, etc.

Now imagine, supposing we have a sufficiently advanced language processing technology, and you can converse with the NPC? Or trully adaptive NPC behaviour using neural networks that reacts to your action? Or NPC that recognizes some of the actions you did, on a level that is not scripted?

some of these technologies still have a long way to go. each are very limited to what they do. the best processor, fortunately or unfortunately, is still our brain.

I love when people dislike a game because it's too "scripted".

nothing wrong with the idea of scripting actually. if the designer has catered to sufficiently large number of scenarios that a player may do, and script all these scenarios accordingly, the player may still find himself immersed in a pretty life-like world.

Voss · Jul 14, 2004

Quigs said:
Voss, yes, and a little game called populous. Ever heard of it?

Yes, yes I have- its why I referenced Bullfrog. played it for quite a while back in the long, long ago. The AI never struck me as "intense"

As far as knowing what happened or not, I suppose in game you would notice the characters were gone. BBB is claiming that no two npc's are alike, and there are NO text messages. they have over 22 thousand lines of spoken text, and expect to cram a few more before release. What I read was from the standpoint of some sort of bug testing mode, So apparantley the hero was'nt envolved at that time.

How do you notice? I got the impression there were going to be lots of villages and NPCS
Is it a village you've never been to before? Basically it becomes, 'if a villager dies in the forest, and you've never met him, how do you know he's dead?'

Fable is pretty much a gaming community secret for the time being.

HA!

Stark · Jul 14, 2004

but isnt AI just advanced unique scripting, with tendencies and favorites part of the mix? (pretty much what plin says) If thats the case, even people use scripting

err, no it's not. unless by "scripting" you mean "doing action A and result in action B", which is so general it applies to all things in this universe (action and reaction). but if we stick to the definition of scripting as we knowing it in games, contrast it to some of the AI fields, then they're very different.

If you're trully interested you should follow up with google on some of the terms i've mentioned. I shall give you a very simple explaination on genetic algorithm, a field of AI (since it's the easiest to describe) and you can contrast that with scripting, and you'll probably see the difference:

you start with a stock of genes (information of whatever domain you're interested to solve) and you let them mutate and evolve in a pool. For example a gene may carry information about worker's schedule. the gene pool contains many genes, each a slight variation of schedule from one another.

you let them evolve, and randomly evaluate the value of the schedule of some/all of these genes. some genes (schedule) may work out better (less overall pay for the workers, and fairer distribution of work) and some work out poorer (unfair distribution, some workers need to work more hours).

you let the poorer genes die, and let the good genes (schedule) survive and, erm, copulate and produce new genes (new schedules) among the surviving ones. let a little mutation occurs occationally, and you end up with a new batch/generation of genes.

you let this go on for hundreds of generations. the newer genes, in general, will have better qualities than the older ones, since they inherit the good qualities from the older stock. in our case, the schedule keep improving, resulting less redundant worker hours and fairer and fairer distribution of work.

you must naturally stop at certain point and end up with pretty good genes and you can select the best out of the pool and use it for your company's work schedule.

I'm sorry if the above is confusing. anyway this is hardly the forum to discuss such topics. but it should be obvious they're not just some unique scripting.

Lasakon · Jul 14, 2004

Fable is now an empty barren husk of what it was suppose to be. Now it's pretty much a really pretty Dark Alliance.

Dhruin · Jul 14, 2004

How is it the first real RPG?

Quigs · Jul 14, 2004

Voss, original populous wasnt bullfrog, least i think it wasnt. you may have played the 3rd populous for the pc. odd game. not much ai at all, just interesting, in a sandbox sort of way.

I guess your right as far as the final conclusion, death. But what happens when your hero runs into them, before they croak? he can chose to help em, or even help the monsters. Or just come along for the show. None of it scripted. Scripting is diffrent then the nueral thing described, since if you play most games the same way, the same things will happen. if you play fable twice, who knows what will happen. maybe the troll ends up killing the villiage this time.

Thanks for the info stark, really helped out.

Dhruin, because you actions make your character. Its not what dialogue options you choose, or which characters you decide to kill, its EVERYTHING. it avoids the whole fallout "stab a million rats with a fork, and become an expert sniper" skill system, instead, the more you fight with weapons, the better you become. the heavier the weapon, the more your muscles grow, etc.

Walks with the Snails · Jul 14, 2004

Sorta like Dungeon Siege? That's just more of a character growth debate that's been around forever. Sometimes punching a guy 10,000 times to build up boxing skill gets kind of old. Skill points generally are meant to represent out of game training, nobody's going to become the world's greatest sniper by shooting 10,000 orcs over a three day bloodbath regardless if you really want to play the realism card. But that's an old topic.

Voss · Jul 14, 2004

Quigs said:
Voss, original populous wasnt bullfrog, least i think it wasnt. you may have played the 3rd populous for the pc. odd game. not much ai at all, just interesting, in a sandbox sort of way.

Whatever. I played all three, and that other thing they did, which impressed me even less.

I guess your right as far as the final conclusion, death. But what happens when your hero runs into them, before they croak? he can chose to help em, or even help the monsters. Or just come along for the show. None of it scripted. Scripting is diffrent then the nueral thing described, since if you play most games the same way, the same things will happen. if you play fable twice, who knows what will happen. maybe the troll ends up killing the villiage this time.

OK, several things are missing here. Mostly, my point, which is if this isn't happening where the hero is, how do you find out about it in any way? Yes, you might come back and two villagers are missing, but so what? How do you know they went wandering off after trolls? How do you know they are, in fact, dead? Apart from randomly wandering into them, which seems a small chance, you're going to miss this- and it therefor won't affect you in any way.

Also- given the area size limitations of the xbox (due to memory issues that we've seen in other games) how big an area is going to be loaded in order for this stuff to happen in?

Dhruin, because you actions make your character. Its not what dialogue options you choose, or which characters you decide to kill, its EVERYTHING. it avoids the whole fallout "stab a million rats with a fork, and become an expert sniper" skill system, instead, the more you fight with weapons, the better you become. the heavier the weapon, the more your muscles grow, etc.

So, combat makes it an RPG? But not exactly combat- just *how* you kill things?
The Morrowwind style, wrap a rubber band around the controller to get skills up because its too damn boring to actual play through the hours and hours of getting skills to a decent level?
Feh. Way to discourage me.

Quigs · Jul 14, 2004

No voss, I think your missing the point. The example was based on npc AI, which moves and goes on seperate from the players actions.

good job taking another example to an odd extreme.
Q Burger king has good burgers!
V So what? they have no fries? I hate burgers anyway. Fish rule, and i guess they dont have those either.

All I did was mention the very basics of how the combat system for melee characters effects your skills and look, and immediately you compare it to morrowind.

Dhruin · Jul 14, 2004

Morrowind seems the obvious comparison on the skill system. How players jumped up and down on the spot for hours or cast fireballs against rocks?

At any rate, the thing that most turned me off was the Sims influence. Can't seem to find the article now but I believe a lot of NPC interaction occurs via small floating icons over their heads rather than dialogue - getting a woman to fall in love with you, for example. FantasySims sounds dodgy to me.

Voss · Jul 15, 2004

Quigs said:
No voss, I think your missing the point. The example was based on npc AI, which moves and goes on seperate from the players actions.

good job taking another example to an odd extreme.
Q Burger king has good burgers!
V So what? they have no fries? I hate burgers anyway. Fish rule, and i guess they dont have those either.

All I did was mention the very basics of how the combat system for melee characters effects your skills and look, and immediately you compare it to morrowind.

yes, because thats how morrowind works. The more you use it, the more the skill goes up. It even ties it to the relevant attributes in a similar way. How is that any different from what fable is offering in terms of skill development?

As far as the example on NPC AI is concerned, you still haven't answered the question: how do *you* know how it works? How does the player know these things happen? If its seperate from the player's actions how does the player find out? How much of the game world is in active memory and how much is changing? Taken to too far of an extreme, this could have weird effects- the late game areas are all wiped out, because the AI did monster hunting things, and the villagers all got killed. You seem to want people to take your optmism at face value and share it, but you need to give some details to support the idea that its going to just be *so fucking awesome*

errorcode · Jul 15, 2004

Quigs · Jul 15, 2004

You pretty much summed it up yourself. Your post was meaningless ranting and bullshit. Normally id even give credit for the whole "I worked on it while I was at..." But guess what, microsoft isnt making the game, dumbass, BBB and lionhead are. and THEY are over in britian! The only demo that made it to the states was at E3. Microsoft occasionally visits BBB studios, but they dont bring back demos.

lostcause · Jul 15, 2004

Quigs said:
You pretty much summed it up yourself. Your post was meaningless ranting and bullshit. Normally id even give credit for the whole "I worked on it while I was at..." But guess what, microsoft isnt making the game, dumbass, BBB and lionhead are. and THEY are over in britian! The only demo that made it to the states was at E3. Microsoft occasionally visits BBB studios, but they dont bring back demos.

He might be telling the truth, as a publisher I'm sure they don't always hop on a plane to view the work. I'm sure the works in progress are sometimes shipped to MS.

Quigs · Jul 16, 2004

Why? The store im at ships stereo equipment out regularly. We dont get half completed speaker boxes in, to let us know how the companies are doing?

Lasakon · Jul 16, 2004

Great analogy! Guess what, Studios don't like to see how the millions of dollars they invested into projects are going to use. That's a fact.

mr. lamat · Jul 16, 2004

Why? The store im at ships stereo equipment out regularly. We dont get half completed speaker boxes in, to let us know how the companies are doing?

because you're in retail, which be under the guise of home-theatre design, but is still in effect retail. it's somewhere in between working at mcdonalds and being a migrant fruit-picker on the job scale.

publisher's get advance copies of developer product. they like to stay ontop of what the contractual serfs are doing. it's apparently good for business.

dipdipdip · Jul 16, 2004

errorcode said:
You are offered the option to be evil but you almost always end up Good due to the plot-centric missions

Yikes ...

Fable

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