RPG clichés

Through my five years of RPG gaming, I have noticed one element that seems to constantly return in almost every game I play: the journal. Whenever your character is exploring a dungeon, you always manage to find some guy's journal that explains in depth how to get past the Terrible Trap of Torment, the Perplexing Puzzle of Pandemonium, or the Massive Monster of Mutilation. Every freakin' time. This is most prevalent in BioWare's games where every dungeon comes with a free guide. It's amazing that after all this time, nobody has yet found a better way of giving clues in RPGs.

So what other cliches can be found in most any RPG? What other gameplay elements return so often that they become an expected part of any RPG?

Ack, and I was going to write up an article on this sort of thing, too.

First, to solve the cliché of what you're talking about with journals, a "dying note" could be given, of being traced in the dirt or in their own blood, with distinctive wounds on their dead body. For added depth, the scrawl could be in a different language or in another manner of communication. Intelligence checks or experience checks, education level, etc. can be used to discern how bad the wounds are, what they might be from, etc. Let the character do some of the hints, and the player can guess it further. Add a little adventuring forensics to the game. After all, a witless adventurer is quite useless.

Another cliché I've been irritated with is a "big bad guy". I've liked the Ultima games because while they do have a bad guy of sorts, you end the game not through brawn, but through a method to do what you need to summon/destroy/whatever. More worlds need that kind of interactivity and depth that Ultima had.

Hey...this makes a PERFECT article/interactive section for the Codex.

Kill The Cliché

Name clichés (reader sent in or we come up with them), and ways of how to get rid of them.

PS:T had a great plot device - 'flashbacks'. so, this could solve many cliched 'clue' problems. instead of a journal or a note you'd trigger a 'flashback'. but, then the quality of writing and ideas in Torment was exceptional. magical tatoos were pretty cool for a start.

On the other hand, the most cliched plots are just a variation of typical Hollywood fare -
"An evil something or other has re-awakened ONCE AGAIN, and YOU, yes YOU, are chosen to march across some dozen maps and whoop its ass with the specially forged sword of Righteous buttkicking." The crowd cheers.

The ending usually loops back to the "bid bad" going to sleep again in one way or another. No doubt to 'set up' for the sequel. Also, the obligatory and obvious use of a traitor character to 'spice' it up. This type of plot is known as Epic, and most of the D&D CRPG games I've played are like that.

an RPG based on the Blade Runner universe and atmosphere would be refreshing. sort of hopeless, dark, no real heroes or villains, just trying to suvive, etc...

another thing that pisses me off, is that designers seem to be infatuated with cramming as many useless skills and spells into a game as they can come with names for. in many CRPGs once you get, say Fireball, you pretty much don't need anything else....,

then, there are.... aaghhh... *falls off the soapbox*

Anonymous said:

sort of hopeless, dark, no real heroes or villains, just trying to suvive, etc...

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*Whispers* Fallout!

Rosh, that collection of cliches was pretty much what I'm trying to start with this thread. Guest got the idea.

Spazmo said:

Anonymous said:

sort of hopeless, dark, no real heroes or villains, just trying to suvive, etc...

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*Whispers* Fallout!

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Not exactly.

The Vault Dweller was an artfully done comic book style superhero.
I really enjoyed how it twisted things around, so no matter what motivation the Vault Dweller had, he ended up being viewed as a hero after all was done.
The portrayal of the Vault Dweller as an old legend in Fallout 2 is probably the only thing that Fallout 2 did well.
He was seen by the people of the wastes as having appeared from nowhere and then saving their world from the Mutants, then disappearing again.
And the best part about this is that if the Vault Dweller was an evil bastard, the portrayal of him can be said to be a misinterpretation of his own actions (ie: saving himself vs saving the world, or saving his home.)


It is far beyond the usual Player Character cliche, that deals with Prophecy and Fate, and generally ends up with evil pretty much meaning 'good for hire'.
The themes that most RPG's use in their main plots are also quite cliched.
The idea of corruption and power seems to feature a lot, as does fate.
You hardly ever see RPG's dealing with issues such as redemption or even comparitive morality. It's usually on a black and white scale. Good and evil.
Only the best RPG's have shades of grey. Lesser and greater levels of good and evil, and no totally evil entities. It's refreshing to see a villian that one can relate to, understand, and even agree with.

With the cliched plot lines, you get the 'ancient evil' that pretty much always pans out in the same fashion.

The ancient evil could be a sentient being trapped in an ancient tomb. An ancient technology that would prove to be the end of mankind, an entity trapped in another dimension, however, they always seem to have the same motivation. Destruction of the world, just for the sake of destroying the world.

Usually the 'ancient evil' is freed by a cult, a mad scientist, or a foolish group of adventurers that do not understand what they are doing.

And only YOU can save mankind.

Amnesia. A tough one, because it's otherwise very difficult to give the player a "blank page" for their character, and we all well know that pre-defined characters r t3h gh3y.

Magic. Not necessarily just the existence of magic, but the fact that every game seems to have identical spell sets, and magic always seems to be underpowered at the start of a game, and overpowered by the end.

Goody two shoes. Far too many games force you to be the good guy, or in the case of Biofodder, evil means doing the good guy stuff but getting paid for it.

Dwarves. Fuck I hate Dwarves.

Dungeons of any kind, or by any other name, ie Vaults, Caverns, Tombs, etc.

I would like a game where I can stay outside pretty much all of the time, or at least above ground.

Jed

Spazmo said:

Through my five years of RPG gaming, I have noticed one element that seems to constantly return in almost every game I play: the journal. Whenever your character is exploring a dungeon, you always manage to find some guy's journal that explains in depth how to get past the Terrible Trap of Torment, the Perplexing Puzzle of Pandemonium, or the Massive Monster of Mutilation. Every freakin' time. This is most prevalent in BioWare's games where every dungeon comes with a free guide. It's amazing that after all this time, nobody has yet found a better way of giving clues in RPGs.

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I agree that journals are largely crap, because if they knew how to solve the puzzle, why are they dead? Why didn't they get the prize? Why did they leave their journal behind?

But that's BioWare for you. It's like all the HeadEx quests in NWN. They come up with some plot device, and then they use it over and over and over again because they have no creativity whatsoever.

Avernum games are filled with puzzles, but they're there for you to figure out on your own. They don't spoil the puzzles with lame and cliche plot devices. That's really the way it should be.

Anonymous said:

PS:T had a great plot device - 'flashbacks'. so, this could solve many cliched 'clue' problems. instead of a journal or a note you'd trigger a 'flashback'. but, then the quality of writing and ideas in Torment was exceptional. magical tatoos were pretty cool for a start.

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This is basically a cliche of any lost memory plot. They all have this, in movies, RPGs, TV shows, books, etc. The designers of PS:T just borrowed this device since it fit the game.

Vampire media, Highlander movies/tv, and just about any "elongated life" motiff also uses these frequently, as well.

On the other hand, the most cliched plots are just a variation of typical Hollywood fare -
"An evil something or other has re-awakened ONCE AGAIN, and YOU, yes YOU, are chosen to march across some dozen maps and whoop its ass with the specially forged sword of Righteous buttkicking." The crowd cheers.

Click to expand...

The FANTASY setting uses this all the damned time. I've always found it funny that in the fantasy setting, there's never a new threat.. It's always an ANCIENT ENEMY. ALWAYS. And there's never a present time solution to the ANCIENT ENEMY, you always have to seek out the ANCIENT SOLUTION, be it a weapon, or a scroll, or some other ANCIENT magic item.

Although, I will say Arcanum was interesting in that it was an ANCIENT ENEMY plot, basically.. The ANCIENT ENEMY was using technology to break it's bonds, since technology interfered with magic.

an RPG based on the Blade Runner universe and atmosphere would be refreshing. sort of hopeless, dark, no real heroes or villains, just trying to suvive, etc...

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Wasn't that basically Fallout? Hero or villian, whichever one you were, it still boiled down to you having to do what you do to survive. Whether you helped the world along the way, or seriously screwed it up, was up to you.

Deathy said:

The portrayal of the Vault Dweller as an old legend in Fallout 2 is probably the only thing that Fallout 2 did well.

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Fallout 2's "designers" also made the assumption that the Vault Dweller did do the Good Guy thing, rather than leaving it up in the air as to how he did things. After all, Tandi was obviously saved, and if you read the NCR Propeganda, he saved all the locations south of there. Killian survived, after all.

The ancient evil could be a sentient being trapped in an ancient tomb. An ancient technology that would prove to be the end of mankind, an entity trapped in another dimension, however, they always seem to have the same motivation. Destruction of the world, just for the sake of destroying the world.

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That's another nice thing about Fallout. The Master thought he was saving the world by converting humans in to supermutants. This device even allowed you to present the problems with his plan to him, and he's kill himself over it.

Trajkov in Geneforge is another prime example of an "enemy" that believes he's doing the right thing, even though that may not be the case. After all, he allied with the Takers, who are a nasty lot.

Secton8 said:

Magic. Not necessarily just the existence of magic, but the fact that every game seems to have identical spell sets, and magic always seems to be underpowered at the start of a game, and overpowered by the end.

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Yup, I totally hate the fact they CRPGs have adopted the D&D idea that mages start off as pissant weaklings and end up being ubermensch.

Goody two shoes. Far too many games force you to be the good guy, or in the case of Biofodder, evil means doing the good guy stuff but getting paid for it.

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Black Isle likes to do this as well.

XJEDX said:

Dungeons of any kind, or by any other name, ie Vaults, Caverns, Tombs, etc.

I would like a game where I can stay outside pretty much all of the time, or at least above ground.

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"Dungeons" can be above ground, such as Mariposa in Fallout.

The FANTASY setting uses this all the damned time. I've always found it funny that in the fantasy setting, there's never a new threat. It is always an ANCIENT ENEMY. ALWAYS. And there's never a present time solution to the ANCIENT ENEMY, you always have to seek out the ANCIENT SOLUTION, be it a weapon, or a scroll, or some other ANCIENT magic item.

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One of the redeeming factors of the BG series is that they did not do this at all. Sarevok was your twin, and Iranicus was thousands of years old, though his newer "evil" form was relatively young. NWN on the other hand......

Wasn't that basically Fallout? Hero or villain, whichever one you were, it still boiled down to you having to do what you do to survive. Whether you helped the world along the way, or seriously screwed it up, was up to you.

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Untrue. I would state the reasons, but Deathy posted it quite eloquently already.

That's another nice thing about Fallout. The Master thought he was saving the world by converting humans in to supermutants. This device even allowed you to present the problems with his plan to him, and he's kill himself over it.

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My favorite thing about Arcanum was the fact that the big bad guy thought he was doing the right thing, though he was doing the stereotypical "Kill everything" fantasy tactic. Brilliant.

Constipated Craprunner said:

Wasn't that basically Fallout? Hero or villain, whichever one you were, it still boiled down to you having to do what you do to survive. Whether you helped the world along the way, or seriously screwed it up, was up to you.

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Untrue. I would state the reasons, but Deathy posted it quite eloquently already.

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It's entirely true.

The Overseer sends you out for a waterchip, which is all about survival. In order to get the chip, you can either help the ghouls in the necropolis fix their water pump or you can screw them over and steal it, which would end up killing the ghouls or forcing them to leave their town. The fact there's a good and evil method of doing this suggests the idea is neither good nor evil since there's both ways of doing it.

Along the way, you find out about the Master's plan, and you stop it. This is also about survival, since the the alternative is either death or being a supermutant. That alternative isn't a good thing considering the consequences of being a supermutant.

CCR, the Baldur's Gate plot is all about ancient evil. Bhaal, the evil guy, dies and is trying to return. Admittedly, said evil died maybe fifteen to twenty years ago, but it's still the classic dead evil waking up thing.

Another cliche I've noticed is what's probably the single most common line of dialog in the whole RPG genre: "Can I ask you some questions?"

How many times has a PC barged into somebody's house and proceeded to pump him for information about the area? And how many times have the poor people actually answered the questions of the stranger who just broke in without acting as if this was at all abnormal? This is admittedly a necessary evil in order to transmit information about a location, person, or event, but it's still surprising how many times it returns.

Yeah, I've noticed most games now have someone who gets angry at you barging into their house, asks why adventurers always seem to feel entitled to do so, then goes on and answers your questions.

You see it mostly in console games, but I get really sick of the non-stereotypical heroes that are used so much that they're now stereotypes. The 15-year old boy who after whipping up on a few monsters now takes on professional soldiers who have been training before the day he was born. The female warrior who is so competent in everything and regularly beats men in combat/arm-wrestling/bench-presses/etc. that she's basically indistinguishable from a boring guy with a bra. The dark and mysterious stranger who seems weak and frail but is secretly a total badass who could kill you while hardly batting an eyelash. Okay, the hero doesn't always have to be an ubermensch, but it is so much to ask that if you're trying to avoid stereotypes and want an intriguing character that I could actually ever believe this could ever be a real person?

It kind of irritates me that every protagonist in console RPGs seems to be a little effiminate blond haired kid with stupid fucking clothes, who has a big beefy friend, who is usually black. Along the way, he either falls for the attractive girl he's grown up with but never noticed that she has 46DDDs, or the magical healer who has some kind of secret past involving a royal or alien bloodline.

Section8 said:

It kind of irritates me that every protagonist in console RPGs seems to be a little effiminate blond haired kid with stupid fucking clothes, who has a big beefy friend, who is usually black. Along the way, he either falls for the attractive girl he's grown up with but never noticed that she has 46DDDs, or the magical healer who has some kind of secret past involving a royal or alien bloodline.

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That perfectly describes the storyline for FF VII-X and both Summoners.
I always find it hilarious that they never seemed to notice 46DDDs that are staring them in the face about as blatantly as is possible.
It is as if all of these guys started going into puberty half way through their adventure.

Walks with the Snails said:

Yeah, I've noticed most games now have someone who gets angry at you barging into their house, asks why adventurers always seem to feel entitled to do so, then goes on and answers your questions.

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One of the things that really annoyed me in Icewind Dale was the fact that you could just blatantly wander around someone's house, rob them blind, have a chat with them, and walk out. Hell, in Icewind Dale Heart of Winter, you can wander into the back room of an inn, check out the innkeeper's secret room, steal the contents, walk back out - tell him you found his secret room, and get him to sell magical items to you.....(I did enjoy IWD for the most part, as it stood, this is just one of the things that made me think - "hmmm").

Same thing in NWN, wander in, say hi, the homeowner says "Please don't steal from me" or words to that effect, so you do, then leave, with no consequences.

One thing that I don't really have much time for is the obsession with having NPC romances in games like Baldur's Gate II. While I can see that its an additional level of entertainment in the game, I think that some people make entirely too much of it. Having seen requests somewhere on the Interplay boards that Jefferson have romances, I had to cringe.

CCR, the Baldur's Gate plot is all about ancient evil. Bhaal, the evil guy, dies and is trying to return. Admittedly, said evil died maybe fifteen to twenty years ago, but it's still the classic dead evil waking up thing.

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Bhaal wasnt trying to return in the original BG - it was Sarevok who was trying to gain Bhaal's powers which he thought he could do by killing thousands.

BG2 dealt more with Bhaal trying to return in essence through your character, such as the occurence where your character turned into that Monster thingie. {Although that could be considered just the darker side of your characters nature which you inherited from Bhaal.}

In Throne of Bhaal, its just about the children of bhaal killing each other in an attempt to gain his power. {Guh, I think there were situations in TOB where Bhaal did make some sort of appearance though. Now that I think about, The BG series storyline is pretty convoluted.}

Lasse said:

Most of the RPGs have this problem. In Fallout, you could kick in doors and steal shit from the next room without any complaints. In Arcanum, people attacked if you tried to lockpick doors, but if you used unlocking cantrips from a long distance so that they didn't notice, walked in and stole everything, they didn't care. "Oh sure mister, if you can find a way in, you can take whatever you like".

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True, its just something that I really noticed in Icewind Dale.

Another thing. I think it's kind of silly how the hero wanders into strangers' homes, asking for jobs to do. Why the hell would they have job for some unknown bastard who decided to come in their house without even knocking? Still, the naive idiots always trust their family members / money / whatever to him. Take care of your problem yourself for a change, fucking worthless lump of flesh. Arcanum had a nice joke about this, actually.

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*chuckle* I've always found that funny, especially when its a group of adventurers, all tooled up and wearing armour, just marching in to someone's house.

I think thats some kind of console trash carryover, you can just wander into peoples homes, go through their drawers, under their bed, dig up some potted plants looking for potions or coins. Also there are treasure chests EVERYWHERE, just laying about in the middle of the road, or if it has something pretty good its hidden, but not really, its just hidden from someone who only has one camera view of the area. And each town has weapons just one grade better then the one you just left.

And then theres the spikey hair, they should release a game where the protagonist just rams people with their spikey head, and instead of upgrading weapons in the next town they get a new more dangerous haircut, instead of health potions your life depends on hair gel.

...but then those games aren't RPGs

Suggestion

I havent really read through all the post here so I dont know if someone suggested it. But how about some type of picture one a wall. Show like someone in old time predicting the event and then writing it on the wall, and when one of the party members, probably the main one, touches the wall, they get a flashback of him doing it or the image on the wall comes to life in front of him.

You know, unlike the aforementioned games, Divine Divinity actually takes a different, more realistic route in dealing with the whole matter of walking into some stranger’s house and taking all of his stuff. Doing it in Divine Divinity usually results in this person asking you questions like “What do you think you’re doing?” and forcing you to put down what you just tried to take, and your reputation will even decrease from this action.

And unlike the original Baldur’s Gate, the homeowner won’t suddenly go hostile and foolishly attack you, hence committing suicide.

It’s nice that if you pick up something in a merchant’s store or armory in Divine Divinity, the merchant will speak to you immediately and ask you if you fancy the item and inquire if you wish to purchase the item. If you refuse, you won’t lose any reputation, but it does make a lot of sense that you should be able to pick up items that you see on sale in order to purchase them. This sort of action usually resulted in turning the merchant hostile in Baldur’s Gate and other games of the series. It’s amazing how nobody has ever mentioned this in any review of those games. I mean, seriously, what reason would the merchant have to go hostile on you?

If you try to steal things from someone in Divine Divinity and are caught doing so, you might even get attacked, but the attacker won’t fight to the death with you. Try killing Ortho’s pigs sometime.

Having your weapon raised while talking to a person even initiates the other person to tell you he doesn’t want trouble (if he’s a merchant running a store) , or asks for you to stand down. From there you’re given three responses: agreement, a snide response “why, are you afraid to fight me?”, which lowers your reputation, and combat response. It’s not much, but it adds to the immersion of a ‘realistic’ setting.

It’s so silly to have a large group of people walk into some house all with their weapons at the ready, and asking a poor homeowner for directions and other stupid questions.

Some people complain that it’s a ‘hassle’ to draw your weapons or to sheath them. Seriously, stop your fucking whining and press the C key. This sort of ridiculous whining comes only from console gamers who seem to prefer simplicity (i.e. walking into a house and robbing a person blind) over immersion. People like these should stick to their Zelda games.

Mistress said:

Same thing in NWN, wander in, say hi, the homeowner says "Please don't steal from me" or words to that effect, so you do, then leave, with no consequences.

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That's one thing that annoyed me about NWN as well. They took the time to make the dialogue for, "Please don't take my stuff." but they didn't actually have a script that did something about that. Pretty half assed.

Prelude of Darkness actually has an ownership system, where people will tell you to leave their stuff alone if you touch it without using the stealing skill.

Avernum series and Geneforge use a system where items that aren't yours and aren't free to swipe are marked as Not Yours. If you do take it, and someone's around to see it, expect guards to be all over you.

Morrowind was also pretty good about not allowing you to waltz in, rob the place blind, and leave without anyone doing anything.

One thing that I don't really have much time for is the obsession with having NPC romances in games like Baldur's Gate II. While I can see that its an additional level of entertainment in the game, I think that some people make entirely too much of it. Having seen requests somewhere on the Interplay boards that Jefferson have romances, I had to cringe.

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Yes, I seriously hate that romance crap myself. This is DEFINITELY something borrowed from those silly console CRPGs, especially the ones from Japan.

Ibbz said:

Bhaal wasnt trying to return in the original BG - it was Sarevok who was trying to gain Bhaal's powers which he thought he could do by killing thousands.

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The power of a god could be considered a airly ANCIENT thing, though.

Most of the RPGs have this problem. In Fallout, you could kick in doors and steal shit from the next room without any complaints. In Arcanum, people attacked if you tried to lockpick doors, but if you used unlocking cantrips from a long distance so that they didn't notice, walked in and stole everything, they didn't care. "Oh sure mister, if you can find a way in, you can take whatever you like".

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There were a few places in Fallout where you couldn't just walk in and take everything. Of course, in Fallout, you didn't usually have to kick in doors to enter a house because there were big holes in the wall. :D

I have no problem with the character being able to walk in and take stuff in Fallout, really. It kind of goes with the 1950s thing, where people didn't used to have to lock doors. Plus, there's not much policing or insurance going on either, so you'd end up having to replace the door and the items if you locked the door, as opposed to just replacing what was taken.

In Arcanum, that was just a glitch in the spell.

HanoverF said:

Also there are treasure chests EVERYWHERE, just laying about in the middle of the road, or if it has something pretty good its hidden, but not really, its just hidden from someone who only has one camera view of the area. And each town has weapons just one grade better then the one you just left.

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NWN was really bad about that.. And so are the Final Fantasy games now that I think about it.

Saint_Proverbius said:

That's one thing that annoyed me about NWN as well. They took the time to make the dialogue for, "Please don't take my stuff." but they didn't actually have a script that did something about that. Pretty half assed.

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Yes, one of the many things that niggled away when playing NWN.....

Prelude of Darkness actually has an ownership system, where people will tell you to leave their stuff alone if you touch it without using the stealing skill.

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I was actually quite pleased when I noticed that. It makes so much more sense. After all, there aren't many people that would let you just wander into their home unannounced and start picking through their things.....

Saint_Proverbius said:

There were a few places in Fallout where you couldn't just walk in and take everything. Of course, in Fallout, you didn't usually have to kick in doors to enter a house because there were big holes in the wall. :D

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There was a foolproof way to keep a PC from stealing anything in Fallout, just employ Ian to stand in the doorway...

HanoverF said:

There was a foolproof way to keep a PC from stealing anything in Fallout, just employ Ian to stand in the doorway...

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HAHAH!! Very good, I'm surprised nobody brought it up before!