How do you like your magic served?

There is the D&D system of remembering per day and resting, which never really made much sense to me. Do mages have a daily magic word limit?

There is always the mana system with either potions, resting, or constant regen giving a general magic "ammo" pool. Always felt artifical to me.

Arcanum used a fatigue system, I kinda liked that fatique was important for any class and not have all those wasted mana potions for a fighter class in other games. And it made sense that magic drew on the stamina of the user, too bad the whole system wasn't designed as well.

There are lots of scrolls that usually vanish after use, guess they don't make them like they used to. And many of these scrolls are written so a 5 INT fighter can cast them once.

Magic seems to be able to be put into liquid form in most games, how much did you like chuging down 20 cheap health potions in Morrowind? Why can't a fireball spell be converted into gasoline or napalm?

How should potions be handled: Did you like the potion sipping system in Dungeon Siege (if nothing else) or the classic one shot items? What spells can be made into potions?

Where should magic come from: Magic words that are hard to say? Pure mental will? Ancient Glyphs (kinda like systems that use Glyphs)?

What makes items and weapons magical? Should protection spells on armor degard with each blow and need a mage to recharge them? Should weapons have charges that return in time? Should material effect magic "absorbance"?

Does nature give magic? Gods? Arcane writings?

What effects are put on the caster? What happens on a critical failure?

magic is for pussy elves and punters who wear bathrobes into battle.

I like the D&D magic system the best from what I've seen. Mana is so... so... so... *bad words deleted by mods* (or would be on other forums :D ).

I'll give a nod to Arcanum and say the FATIGUE thing works well. Casting magic is strenuous, and if you keep casting, casting, casting, you eventually collapse from exhaustion.

My idea of a good magic system is to have one that utilizes Fatigue/Stamina akin to Arcanum's without any of the other 'features' of the system that made it bad. Mana has never really made sense from a 'realistic' perspective (e.g. if you were to put it in a live action movie) so a fatigue system upon which both magic and physical combat rely would be best.

On the one hand, scrolls should exist in the game only as ones containing magic spells for purposes of scribing (or adding as a page into your tome of magic). I've never really liked the reasoning behind 'one-use' scrolls in general.

On the other hand, there should exist healing-type or bless related one-use items that cannot be scribed. These could be boons granted by the gods for limited use. The best way to implement this would be through the use of small runestones that decay or become 'used' upon casting. I propose the following as a method of the application of runestones: they are cast to the ground beneath one's feet (or the feet of the intended target) whereupon a series of particle effects occurs or perhaps a ghastly figure of a spirit rising in the form of a mist.

Magical spells should be, for the most part, manipulation of the elements. In Chinese Feng-Shui, these elements would be Earth, Metal, Wood, Fire and Water, and likewise their Greek counterparts would be Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Quintessence.

Dictionary.com said:

In ancient and medieval philosophy, the fifth and highest essence after the four elements of earth, air, fire, and water, thought to be the substance of the heavenly bodies and latent in all things.

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I really dig the idea of using alchemy, Kabbalah, Feng-Shui, Hermanetics, or rune-casting in a magic system, all of which are a lot better than the usual D&D system of spell memorization. My ideal system would allow the combining of elements into spells to a LIMITED degree. Suffice to say, I wasn't a fan of Morrowind's enchanter or spellmaker, as the spells you were allowed to make were hardly creative in any way.

My ideal system would be to have a very large number of pre-defined spells, and likewise pre-defined elemental combinations properly tested and balanced by the game developer. This way, the spells a player can come up with will be varied, balanced and more importantly unique. Combining Fireball and Chain Lightning would hardly be interesting if the only thing you managed to do was create a particle that did both forms of damage. To the point, it'd be more interesting to see a red Maelstrom of arced lightning dealing heat damage.

For the sake of 'lore' and discovery, I would heavily favor a fantasy world currently undergoing a magical rennaisance, just recovering from the dark ages and rediscovering the lost knowledge of alchemy or Feng Shui. The discovery of tattered manuscripts detailing the casting and creation of spells would be interesting for the player to find, as would the finding of ancient glyphs, runes and tablets.

For the game to be interesting, magic should be treated as a science rather than as a natural talent. In this way, politics would play a heavier role and existence of 'divine' characters would be virtually nonexistent. In fact, the ideal fantasy world of my imagining would have very little divine influence, and were I to extrapolate further, I would make the gods of my world simply ancient wizards who elevated themselves to a higher plane of existence through the mastery of knowledge. Hence the runestones containing magical properties could more or less be described as 'magical hand grenades of varying properties' rather than divine boons. In fact, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to allow the protagonist to craft these runestones if he picks up the skill.

Does nature give magic? Gods? Arcane writings?

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Science and knowledge. Esoteric teachings.

What effects are put on the caster? What happens on a critical failure?

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The same thing that happens when the barrel of your gun explodes in your face due to lack of maintenance on the gun.

i like the fatigue mana aproach, cast too much and collapse, running, fighting,using special abilities, taking damage all work against your mana reserves.

i also agree that magic should be elemental based, mind attacks like charm or terror etc are more for a psionic than a mage, live beings/nature affecting magic is more of a druid thing.

i would really like being able to mix spells, there should also be a critical hit/failture system related (i was really looking foward for that on lionheart but they didnt put it -_- ).

there is also the power question, how powerful should magic be ? i dont really like those games where fighters are always much more powerful than mages most of the time magic should be a precious thing that everyone wants to have but only a few can use .

the ultima games usually had interesting magic systems but most spells were too weak, preparing magic wands with rituals was fun :p

I think that spells should range from the average 'spark' or 'flaming hands' to the insanely powerful. I don't agree with balancing weapons and magic at the same level because magic should, as it makes sense, be powerful than physical attacks. Warriors should only be able to become as powerful as spellcasters if they themselves embrace magic in a different form than mages do (e.g. the enchanting of melee attacks with magical properties, such as transmuting their weapon into pure heat).

Think Prince of Qin.

I'd like to see magic that is subtle and ritualistic. I have yet to encounter an example of this in gaming.

There should be no 'mages', at least no mage class or all-around magery skill. Magic should be difficult, but accessible to everyone. Perhaps the system should be based on a single skill for each ritual. It should be costly and time-consuming. I don't think it should be the defining aspect of a character, either.

Realbumpbert said:

I'd like to see magic that is subtle and ritualistic. I have yet to encounter an example of this in gaming.

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i just said so, try out ultima 8 : pagan, maybe you could find it in an abandoware site

This is a difficult topic to answer, because it depends on what you believe magical powers are drawn from.

In my setting, arcane and divine spells both come from a heavenly source. Divine from the gods, arcane is the swirling energies of Pleroma, drawn to the material world to be shaped and unleashed by caller.

My system draws from 4 pools; health, action, mental, and personality. Once you have drawn action or mental to 0, you may continue to act, using health, like fatigue. The theory for magic using health is when your mind is relaxed, you can use it to channel the energies with more finesse, as your mind becomes tired, you become more clumsy, and your body suffers as if it were a conduit, rather then a mere channeler.

I've always liked Darklands alchemy and saints system. It's a fairly low key system no "big bang" effects that instantly kill everything in sight but can still tip a battle in your favor.

Alchemy requires a lot of time and a LOT money spent on finding reagents, philospher's stones, formulas and training. Especially training as the more powerful potions are very difficult to make. Plus they can only be made when your in an inn or camping, you can't just whip one up in the middle of battle.

The offensive potions have to thrown at the enemy so it's possible to miss or hit your friends. Plus with the enemy advancing you can usually only throw a couple. Another trade off is most of the damage dealing potions also damage the enemies equipment lowering its resale value quite a bit.


Religion doesn't cost as much though you still have travel a lot to learn about the different saints and each requires a donation. The effects usually aren't that impressive although some are a great help in the right situation. Calling saints works on "divine favor" where you spend points to increase the chance the call will be succesful. Usually you can only call on one or two a day and then you have spend time praying, attending mass, etc to restore it.

The only problem with that system was the effects that weren't available to you. The curses Dominicans cast at you, and the demons your enemies can summon...that's what I wanted to do.

Another vote for some sort of Fatigue system, mana never made sense and the memorization approach even less so. I prefer a rather subtle system with enchantments/illusions rather than huge powerful spells of destruction, perhaps with a psionic system as well. Potions should be a branch of alchemy, nothing insanely potent here either, no instant full health from chugging a potion. I'm all for liquid fire and poison gas in potion form rather than as spells.

I think the magic system in Wizardry 8 is pretty nice. Being able to apply different power levels to your spells tends to make them not obsolete as you get higher level. The fatigue system from Arcanum is pretty cool as well. Be nice if the magic in Wizardry 8 used up some of your stamina as well as magic points.

While it would be impossible to do this in a CRPG, I really like the system used in Mage: the Ascension. Although the dice rolling mechanics are horrible (just like in most other White Wolf games) the principle behind the system is really nice. You have an Arete rating that determines how good you are with magick (yeah, in Mage it's magick with ck) in general (it's sort of like a mystical "willpower" rating), and you have ranks in 9 spheres of magick that determine what you can do with it. If, for instance, you want to heal someone who is on the other side of a large room, you need ranks in Correspondence (for the distance effect) and in Life (for the healing).

Furthermore, it's possible to screw up an effect, which basically causes reality to go "Hey, waitaminute, that's not how it works" and bite you in the ass, either by giving you a number of paradox points or by generating a paradox backlash. My last Mage character had a number of nasty ones, such as being paralyzed due to a miniature meteorite shower showering down on me, or getting stuck in my own private pocket dimension shaped like Undermountain. (that was fun.)

Although balancing requires a fair amount of good judgement on the GM's part, this system does allow for some pretty nifty stuff where players get to be creative with their magick. It also allows the players to decide whether they want to take a big risk and do a big, flashy spell effect (with the potential paradox consequences) or do something more subtle and reduce the risks for themselves and their immediate environment.

I guess this system could be turned into a hybrid system with something like mana costs for effects, where you calculate the exact cost based on the complexity of the effect and the amount of spheres used. It'd be hell to balance though.

I dunno, I think it depends on the game, kinda.

Fatigue is pwnare, but Arcanum is a solo-character game (NPC followers dont count and all that, as they are like solo-people too).

But D&D's system is good for party based, so I think it works fine for D&D/party based games.

I dunno.

I prefer to have an item-based system that can be used to give certain effects, but of limited magnitude and duration. This tends to make a constant scaling of power, based upon availability of components, and some can be expendable. All this works out for a bit better balancing and not result in the usual ungodly moronic mess that is the D&D system converted to CRPGs.

I like the stamina system (though I haven't played Arcanum yet).

But I would tend to think of mana as a measure of magical energy, that could be seperate of stamina.

So maybe a combined system, where casting a spell requires some stamina and more importantly the magical energy. Stamina and mana would be spent.

As to me, it seems that if you can raise the dead with your stamina, you can run around non stop for 3 weeks.

For the game to be interesting, magic should be treated as a science rather than as a natural talent. In this way, politics would play a heavier role and existence of 'divine' characters would be virtually nonexistent.

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I agree with the science, but I do like divine beings. I would believe that belief in a diety leaches some mana from the belivers constantly supplying the Deity with its power (so more belivers / stronger believers means a stronger Deity), but this would take away the specialness of being divine, as all it require is belief (on a grand scale) so if you believed that your mate can kick a monster's arse, then some of your energy makes him stronger.

I like the idea of the movie Merlin, where there are 3 levels of wizards; ones that cast by hand movements, ones that vocalize spells, and ones that will spells.

I think that spells like fireball should be able to miss, but spells that track the target (and cost more energy to do so) can never miss (but can be resisted).

One thing I believe would rock is a shamanistic spirit-communication system. You'd journey into the spirit world and try to enlist the aid of various ghosts and demons. Much of it could be based on your reputation and your speech skill...the only part requiring a special skill would be entering the spirit world. Perhaps even non-magical characters could access it by chancing upon special locations or items.

I also liked the stamina system in Arcanum. Especially the fact that going overboard with spells had far more consequences other than being unable to cast anymore spells. The main reason I dislike the memorization system is due to having to rest after even moderate encounters. Now, in a PnP game that system probably works ok because an CRPG encounter that results in a pitched battle lasting only a few minutes can take the whole night in PnP. In a computer game, it's annoying when all your non-caster characters are ready to go but the wizard and cleric need to rest because they blasted out half of their spells and need refill.

My problem(s) with Arcanum's fatigue system was the overabundance of fatigue restoring potions. Kinda defeats the purpose of the system when you can refill at will. I think it would have worked better if the potions would have been rare items that you saved for major battles.

When you didn't want to use the fatigue restorer's the amount of realtime spent waiting could be extremely annoying.

Wait, when was there an Overabundance?

Wait, when was there an Overabundance?

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Through the entire game pretty much. You can buy them at every general store, magic store and gypsie's plus the ones you find while out adventuring. All the stores restock each day so you just step outside and advance time to the next day buy up all they have and repeat ad nauseum til you have blue and red bottles coming out your ears. If an endless supply isn't overabundance what is?

I never found money a problem in this game since all you needed to do was wander around outside Tarant killing orcs and Molocheans til you were loaded down with loot.

Never played Arcanum, but...wouldn't you need restore fatigue potions to kill the orcs who provided the needed income to purchase restore fatigue potions? :D

Nope. They didn't really scale the difficulty of the random encounters. So you run into the same 1-3 orcs regardless of your character's level and number of followers.