Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

Briosafreak · Sep 27, 2003

This started with an attack by Sawyer on Visceris:

You may have noticed that I don't question the sheer ability of other posters' privilege of posting. It has nothing to do with whether the comments are pro-BIS/IPLY or anti-BIS/IPLY. It has to do with your opinion being effectively worthless because it is often illogical and irrational. As I have stated previously, I get more useful feedback out of infrequently reading Saint and Rosh's posts on other forums than I get by reading your posts almost every day.
Let me put it this way: I have no reason to love Atari, or even BioWare for that matter, but seeing you bash them and their products with your nonsensical posts requires even me to step to their defence.

So he then started started throwing a few ideas after Visceris posted this:

Visceris said:
Sorry, Troika had a better build before the game went gold but Atari decided to use the buggier build.

So Sawyer replied:

Sawyer said:
And you still never question why they did it. It's like not questioning someone after they tell you, "Yeah, I saw $500 laying on the ground, but I decided not to pick it up."
Yes, you are making the distinction between the two groups and assigning culpability based on some of the information you receive, therefore you do care, and you are willfully choosing to ignore things when it suits you to do so. You do this constantly and it is incredibly weak.

A developer can keep submitting less and less buggy versions of games for months and months and months and the publisher could waste a bunch of time past when the developer, who signed a contract with the company, promised to have the game finished.

A professor at my university would map out the due dates for every assignment for the term at the very beginning of the term. If a student handed in his or her paper one minute late, he or she would earn a zero on the assignment, regardless of content. The students were aware of this at the beginning of the term -- and there wasn't even anything in it for the professor.

Culpability belongs to both parties, and acting like it's always the publisher's fault is absurd and willfully ignorant.

Visceris said â€œThey had the less buggy build before it went goldâ€

So Sawyer went on:

Sawyer said:
And after that week, they'd probably have another build that's even less buggy. Should they delay release for that one, too?
Do enough consumers feel this way that it's worth three more months of milestone payments? Not usually. Even on the ToEE boards, a lot of people are saying, "Man, there are a bunch of bugs, but I'm still loving it!" That says a lot.

So Gromnir agrees and says "nobody forced timmy to K for an 18 month development cycle. atari even gave'em 2 more months. troika still couldn't come through with a game."
And Sawyer added

Sawyer said:
14 months for IWD.
Way to ignore resources used on the project, chief. IWD had a significantly smaller and less experienced team than ToEE did. No lead designer, no lead programmer, no lead artist. Over half of the people working on it had less than a year of professional experience.

And before you even say it, your opinion "as a gamer" doesn't matter in this comparison because this involves only game developers and publishers. If the IWD team of slobbering morons could produce a mediocre game with someone else's engine in 14 months, surely the people at Troika could make a terrific game using their own engine in 18 months, right? It certainly makes sense on paper.

In operation? Ha. Anytime someone tells me that the rules as implemented in the Infinity Engine were "simplistic", I want to have the IE combat loop code in liquid format so I can drown the critic in it.
So explain to me what's wrong with the analysis. The smaller and less experienced IWD team, using someone else's engine, makes a mediocre game in 14 months. What logical reason can you give that a larger, more experienced ToEE team, using their own engine, cannot make a great game in 18 months?

So in conclusion i`ll put here and entire post with Sawyer replying to Visceris:

Doomsayer wrote (View Post):

First off the lesser experience team, although using someone elses engine, was doing any significant changes to the engine itself.

Sawyer:
The code base was unfinished when we got it. We had a hell of lot of work to do on it. The IE is not change-friendly. Please remember that while Tim Cain and Chris Jones had made an entire RPG engine previously (Fallout), BioWare's team had not. The IWD team certainly had not.

Visceris:
Troika had a engine but no where near the level they needed it to be to incorporate 3.5e as fully as they did. Also they complete removed the graphics portion of the engine's coding so that it would work with prerendered backgrounds and 3D artwork. The original Steam Engine was a tile based graphics engine as you know. Also the rules system and how the engine reacts to the rules system in the engine had to be completely and totally retooled.

Sawyer:
By the people who made it, augmented by other experienced programmers.

Visceris:
The end result only things that are the same with Arcanum and ToEE engine wise is just the core behind the scenes mechanics of the engine and thats it. Anything that was is effected by player input was completely and totally redone.

Sawyer:
By the people who made it, augmented by other experienced programmers. The punch line here is that Tim and krew thought it was possible, Atari thought it was possible, but you, "guessing" in hindsight, claim to know better. BTW, at a GDC roundtable attended by a few dozen people, Tim was the most experienced developer in attendance, with over 10 years.

What do you guys think of this? Is Troika unable to do a good game even if they are experienced, and do BIS and Bioware can be aquited of all the blames because they were inexperienced and had other problems during development?

What do you guys think?

Dan · Sep 27, 2003

I didn't buy ToEE yet, so I will not mention it.

However, I saw the Troika team deliver us with Arcanum, a game much better then any IE/NWN thingy game out there.

Making any conclusions about Troika by judging this one game would be silly. We can judge Biowere though, as we have seen them deliver enough aweful games.

Spazmo · Sep 27, 2003

First off, Visceris and JE are both being a bit silly since despite all the bugs, ToEE is really good. Fallout 2, which was developed in something like 12 months, I believe, was made by a team of programmers, designers and artists at least as good as ToEE's and they hardly had to monkey with their engine at all. Fallout 2 turned out to be another very buggy but still good RPG.

Second, the problems with IWD and other BIS games are not so much due to lack of talent as they are to a number of outside factors. Namely, the Infinity Engine. I'm sure the folks at BIS would have loved to make their own damn engine for their games (i.e., Jefferson, and we all know how much JE loved his Jefferson engine), but the suits saw that they already had a "working" engine that belonged to them. Okay, so the programmers burst into tears at the thought of working with it. So the designers begged not to be forced to use this godawful engine. Doesn't matter. It's cheaper. So the poor IWD team gets stuck with the IE. Beyond that, BIS is constantly forced to make godawful RT hack and slash games. The upcoming Fallout 3 is the closest thing to an RPG BIS will have made--assuming it doesn't get all TORN up in favour of Icewind Dale III or something--since Planescape: Torment. The bottom line is that BIS has got the talent, but boneheaded decisions from on high are crippling that talent and, more often than not, driving it away

As for BioWare, I have to, once again, blame IPLY suits. If they hadn't been told by Interplay to make a D&D RPG with their engine, they would have just cranked out some dull RTS or squad-based game and quickly disappeared from the gaming scene. Instead, they were assigned an RPG and while they didn't completely bugger it up--the BG games were, as I've said before, fun as action/adventure games if nothing else, provided you had the patience to handle them--it did set the stage for NWN and BioWare's eventual destruction of CRPG standards. Now, obviously, BioWare's utter lack of talent and devotion to making RPGs plays a major part in this, but I'd say that IPLY's fateful decision was the catalyst that set off the chain reaction.

Vault Dweller · Sep 27, 2003

Ha! I saw this thread and I think that Sawyer is fucking pathetic in his frequent attacks on Tim, Troika, and ToEE's bugs. It's not only this thread, JE made tons of remarks about Tim including the infamous for its stupidity pears and oranges story. If he wants to prove that he's better then "pop Cain" he should make a decent game and let it speak for itself. It's cute that he admits that IWD2 sucked ass, but what does he as a designer have to show for himself?

As for ToEE, it's an awesome game. Sure it has some faults, it has bugs, the dialogues are very plain despite what Troika led us to believe, the towns quests are boring, but combat and everything that related to it is absolutely awesome and easily tops anything else on the market. And since it's a game focused on combat unlike Arcanum, that's the stuff that counts.

Sawyer's comparison to IWD dev cicle is unfair and biased as nobosdy can say that Troika used the same engine as Arcanum, the amount of work they've done is tremendous, it's clear to anybody with a brain but apparently not to Sawyer, while IWD looks and play exactly like any other IE game, not to mention it didn't have the same level of combat details, feats, and million of other things.

Jora · Sep 27, 2003

Vault Dweller said:
Ha! I saw this thread and I think that Sawyer is fucking pathetic in his frequent attacks on Tim, Troika, and ToEE's bugs. It's not only this thread, JE made tons of remarks about Tim including the infamous for its stupidity pears and oranges story. If he wants to prove that he's better then "pop Cain" he should make a decent game and let it speak for itself. It's cute that he admits that IWD2 sucked ass, but what does he as a designer have to show for himself?.

I really think you should read some of his posts before making comments like that. He enjoys ToEE and has said so many times.

Here are some links for you:
http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=319611

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=319005

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=319005&perpage=30&pagenumber=2

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=318512

He has never attacked Cain.

EEVIAC · Sep 27, 2003

Sounds like a pissing contest to me.

But we did Icewind Dale in 14 months, so

There, there shnookems, have a tissue and dry your eyes.

JE said:
The punch line here is that Tim and krew thought it was possible, Atari thought it was possible, but you, "guessing" in hindsight, claim to know better. BTW, at a GDC roundtable attended by a few dozen people, Tim was the most experienced developer in attendance, with over 10 years.

And defending one of the most respected and experienced developers who's seriously gotten the shaft is wrong, how? What a fucked up world.

Vault Dweller · Sep 27, 2003

Jora said:
I really think you should read some of his posts before making comments like that. He enjoys ToEE and has said so many times.

And so did Gaider, but enjoying a game and attacking those who make you feel insecure and less competent are two different things. For the record I do read his post for FO3 related info.

He has never attacked Cain.

Pa-fucking-lease! What about the time when Tim said that TB is the true DnD, and RT is a hybrid, JE posted some pathetic statement or whatever that stupid thing was :roll:

Jora · Sep 27, 2003

He has never attacked Cain.

Pa-fucking-lease! What about the time when Tim said that TB is the true DnD, and RT is a hybrid, JE posted some pathetic statement or whatever that stupid thing was :roll:

[/quote]

He just answered to Mr. Teatime's question. Stating opinions does not mean attacking. But forget what I said! We must defend the honor of Troika! Sawyer, Atari and Chuck Cuevas have formed an unholy conspiracy against Tim Cain (who is never wrong and is allowed to have opinions).

BTW. Some Troika developers have criticized IE games and said that the particle effects in ToEE are much better than the ones in NWN. Have they pathetically attacked BIS and BIO?

triCritical · Sep 27, 2003

For the record JE argued that the bugs in ToEE were minor on the Atari boards. Furthermore, JE points out that the ToEE crew is exprerienced. I corrected him saying that only three people on that crew have traceable experience from Arcanum, as for the rest I believe they are rookies. Furthermore, the people with the experience Steve Moret, Tim Cain and Michael McCarthy were all the leads.

I think if they were given the chance to make a sequel it would be much more polished, they normally always are.

Briosafreak · Sep 27, 2003

Just a question i saw this on the BIS boards about Troika and ToEE

Well the fact they managed to go over budget and over the deadline

is that true?

And he didn`t bought your argument Tri

That doesn't mean they hired inexperienced people.

HanoverF · Sep 27, 2003

TIm: 'Turn based combat will make ToEE the most faithful D&D CRPG to date"

Sawyer: "But there won't be horsies!!!!!1!!1"

(paraphrased)

Shevek · Sep 27, 2003

I was thinking about going over to those boards and registering to lay my own opinion but I saw some nitpicking about how a Dwarven Waraxe couldnt be used one handed (and a couple other minor bugs) and how that made the combat poor. I mean, if I nitpicked like that, every rpg on the market could be argued to be trash. After I read that, I knew those boards were a waste of my time. It seems to me alot of people over there just have their minds made up (including the developers it seems) and things like fact and reason will have little pull in that environment.

Major_Blackhart · Sep 27, 2003

He has attacked God Cain :!: (grabs pitchfork and torch) Follow me to the tower, and we'll finish this monster

Seriously though, all I see nowadays (while JE makes some really good and helpful comments towards VanBuren) is that when it comes to Troika, he bitches, moans, and complains more than my dead grandmother, and she had lung cancer and was on dialysis. I mean, a person can say all he wants about a game how great it is and all, but still feel threatened by the creator. It does suck that he has to live up to god cain and all, but Jesus, I've never seen someone bitch so much. What kind of complex is that called again

:

Vault Dweller · Sep 27, 2003

Jora said:
Stating opinions does not mean attacking.

Well, that all depends on the way an opinion is stated, doesn't it? Addressing Tim Cain statement that wasn't directed at Sawyer, btw, and "being blunt about it" as JE put it is an attack.

But forget what I said! We must defend the honor of Troika! Sawyer, Atari and Chuck Cuevas have formed an unholy conspiracy against Tim Cain (who is never wrong and is allowed to have opinions).

Tim Cain is more then able to defend his own honor, so there is no need for anybody to do that for him. I happen to like his games and dislike games of many other developers including but not limited to those of Bioware and Interplay, and I find their little stabs to be distasteful and inappropriate, and that's the opinion I expressed.

Some Troika developers have criticized IE games and said that the particle effects in ToEE are much better than the ones in NWN. Have they pathetically attacked BIS and BIO?

Again, it depends on the way it was said. I don't suppose you have a link readily available? Anyway, imo, comparing to is one thing, saying there would be gameplay issues (Gaider), or that it's not what Cain claimed it to be (Sawyer), or that Troika did a worse job then a team of inexperienced unguided developers working with a new engine is something entirely different.

And in conclusion, my sentiments could not be summarized better then:

Major_Blackhart said:
all I see nowadays (while JE makes some really good and helpful comments towards VanBuren) is that when it comes to Troika, he bitches, moans, and complains more than my dead grandmother, and she had lung cancer and was on dialysis

Jora · Sep 27, 2003

Major_Blackhart said:
It does suck that he has to live up to god cain and all, but Jesus, I've never seen someone bitch so much.

And I have never seen him doing anything like that. Could you please post some examples?

And I can't understand how saying "Troika is very experienced developer" is pathetic. And I don't see any reson why he would be jealous to Tim.

Shevek · Sep 27, 2003

It just seems to me alot of these developers are a bit envious that Troika gets to make games like they wish they could make em. Gaider and Sawyer are both working for development houses that are obviously moving to a much stronger console focus and moving away from the more hardcore crpgs they seem to want to be making. Anywho, it pretty obvious, to me at least, that their comments are both inappropriate and largely based on half-truths and hyperbole. But, whatever, if they feel the need to bark angrily against Troika to their brainwashed fans, let them. Everyone needs validation every now and again, right?

J.E. Sawyer · Sep 27, 2003

Hey guys, this thread rocks!

Vault Dweller said:
Well, that all depends on the way an opinion is stated, doesn't it? Addressing Tim Cain statement that wasn't directed at Sawyer, btw, and "being blunt about it" as JE put it is an attack.

It wasn't directed at me? So to whom was Mr. Cain referring when he suggested that the interviewer ask all those "other" companies why they use real-time versions of D&D? Let's break it down and look at the contemporary companies who make real-time D&D games. There's Baldur's Gate, which was published by Black Isle, Icewind Dale, which was developed and published by Black Isle, PS: T, which was developed and published by Black Isle, BG: DA, which was published by Black Isle, NWN, which was originally published by Black Isle, and all of the sequels and expansions to those products.

But, I guess you're right; he could have been talking about Atari making D&D Heroes.

I suppose it's also not relevant that Mr. Teatime did, in fact, specifically point Tim's question at me?

Tim Cain is more then able to defend his own honor, so there is no need for anybody to do that for him.

I could have sworn there was a temporary gag on Troika preventing them from discussing aspects of the patch status. That might explain the initial barren wasteland of comments where people like Exitium, Belenus (please forgive me if I got your name wrong) and I had to tell people to shut their traps.

I happen to like his games and dislike games of many other developers including but not limited to those of Bioware and Interplay, and I find their little stabs to be distasteful and inappropriate, and that's the opinion I expressed.

I think it's absurd that one person can criticize the design decisions of another game developer and the game developers criticized, directly or indirectly, cannot respond to that criticism without being considered distasteful and inappropriate. Come on. Do I only get to cheerlead?

or that it's not what Cain claimed it to be (Sawyer), or that Troika did a worse job then a team of inexperienced unguided developers working with a new engine is something entirely different.

Huh? I don't remember ever saying that ToEE wasn't what Cain claimed it would be. In fact, I posted on the IPLY forums that it was pretty much exactly what I expected it would be based on what Tim said in interviews.

And when did I say or even imply that Troika did a worse job on ToEE than Black Isle did on IWD?

Shevek said:
It just seems to me alot of these developers are a bit envious that Troika gets to make games like they wish they could make em.

That is often true. I would like to make a turn-based D&D game, or a turn-based anything game. But my envy for their abilities/capabilities doesn't prevent me from seeing what I believe are the good and bad aspects of the design decisions they make.

Anywho, it pretty obvious, to me at least, that their comments are both inappropriate and largely based on half-truths and hyperbole.

I think you've established an absurd double-standard, but oh well.

Shevek · Sep 27, 2003

Tim Cain never criticized any other game developer to the best of my knowledge. The closest he ever came was in an interview where the interviewer questioned why ToEE was TB and somewhat criticized Troika's decision to take that route. TC responded that ToEE was going TB because DnD was designed TB and that it makes more sense to ask why other titles went RT. This is not a criticism of RT; it is merely an assertion with respect to validity of launching criticisms against ToEE for going TB. If you can find an instance where TC criticized you as you suggest, I would perhaps understand your viewpoint but, frankly, I am not aware of such an instance.

*edit*
Also, I am sorry if my previous post was a bit over-the-top. I should not have used terms such as "bark" for example and perhaps my validation comment was not appropo.

J.E. Sawyer · Sep 27, 2003

Shevek said:
The closest he ever came was in an interview where the interviewer questioned why ToEE was TB and somewhat criticized Troika's decision to take that route.

I didn't really read the interviewer's question as a criticism (most interviewers don't jump into slamming the people they're interviewing) but as an opportunity for Tim to explain the benefits of a TB implementation of D&D. I guess I can see how it could be interpreted that way, though.

TC responded that ToEE was going TB because DnD was designed TB and that it makes more sense to ask why other titles went RT. This is not a criticism of RT; it is merely an assertion with respect to validity of launching criticisms against ToEE for going TB. If you can find an instance where TC criticized you as you suggest, I would perhaps understand your viewpoint but, frankly, I am not aware of such an instance.

I didn't respond to his supposed question out of the void. I saw it before Mr. Teatime even posted it. Mr. Teatime quoted that section, and posed the question to me. I responded to it, and I still hold to the things I stated. Blindly adhering to the pen and paper rules is a bad idea, IMO. Certain elements translate over very well to a computer format and certain elements don't. I think the turn-based combat in ToEE is extremely fun... at levels four and up. I was clenching my teeth in frustration from 1st to 3rd level because the combats were so arduous and filled with round after round of misses on all sides.

The Troika guys made a very fun game and they did a great job modifying the Arcanum engine for 3.5 rules. For some reason, people keep losing sight of the fact that I was defending Troika's ability to gauge their own time and make a game superior to IWD. Yes, ToEE has bugs. IWD also had bugs. Some pretty obnoxious ones. And I think ToEE is more fun than IWD.

*edit*
Also, I am sorry if my previous post was a bit over-the-top. I should not have used terms such as "bark" for example and perhaps my validation comment was not appropo.

No prob. BTW, I think that with another full development cycle, the Troika guys are fully capable of making an epic RPG with even better role-playing (it's great in some parts of ToEE and not so great in others, IMO) and truly awesome turn-based combat. I'd love that.

Diogo Ribeiro · Sep 27, 2003

I think this "who attacked who" business is rather... iffy, at best. Tim Cain's comentary, while absolutely valid regarding the ignorance of the interviewer, was aimed at people behind real-time D&D game projects, and we know which ones they are. The point is that what Tim said was not an attack - he just pointed out to people who do/did something different in terms of combat implementation. I honestly failed to see then where there was a personal attack, as i fail to see where is one now. In fact, Sawyer's comment on the matter was brought on by Mr.Teatime (i remember seeing it on the IPLY boards myself).

So the chain of events starts with: ignoramous reporter -> Tim Cain -> Mr.Teatime -> J.E. Sawyer -> "weapons day at the park"-reaction from readers :roll:

Now, around the fireplace, y'all. Group hug :wink:

Vault Dweller · Sep 27, 2003

J.E.Sawyer said:
It wasn't directed at me? So to whom was Mr. Cain referring when he suggested that the interviewer ask all those "other" companies why they use real-time versions of D&D

Well, JE, the way I see it, it was directed at the interviewer who asked a dumb question and the whole notion that TB obsolete. I'm sure you'd agree that it's the companies who do RT DnD gams should be asked why, not the other way around. It doesn't imply that RT is wrong, bad, and sucks, but it's a deviation from the ruleset. You didn't have to take it personally unless you know something we don't (like what you and Tim talked about on that meeting :wink: )

think it's absurd that one person can criticize the design decisions of another game developer and the game developers criticized, directly or indirectly, cannot respond to that criticism without being considered distasteful and inappropriate

Was it your decision to do both TB and RT in VB? Was it your decision to do IWD2 they way it was done? No, according to your comments, so why take it personally. As far as I know, Tim never said JE sucks because...

I don't remember ever saying that ToEE wasn't what Cain claimed it would be

I meant when you made a big post after Tim's interview trying to prove that it's not a true DnD adaptation anyway, 'cause it doesn't have horsies and jumping

And when did I say or even imply that Troika did a worse job on ToEE than Black Isle did on IWD?

"The smaller and less experienced IWD team, using someone else's engine, makes a mediocre game in 14 months. What logical reason can you give that a larger, more experienced ToEE team, using their own engine, cannot make a great game in 18 months?"

Oh, and welcome!

Sol Invictus · Sep 27, 2003

I'm behind J.E. on this one, guys (as well as a lot of things). I may not really like what's going on with Interplay right now but I don't think any of us should fabricate lies and untruths about the things that Josh has said, or not said... and I don't think we need to go about making claims that Tim has never taken a stab at other developers indirectly, because as much as I like the guy and as much as I love his games (including ToEE) and as much as I support what he has to say about real-time D&D games, what he said was more or less a little stab at another game; which in my opinion would be Neverwinter Nights, as it's clearly the most popular, and David Gaider is none too innocent in the whole stabbing department, by comparing Temple of Elemental Evil's turn-basedness with the RPG disaster which was Pool of Radience 2.

If Tim did take a stab at anyone, it is pretty mild in comparison to THAT. It's like comparing an FPS currently in development to say... Daikatana. Wouldn't a juxtaposition with Quake or Doom be better alternatives? Just as such, a comparison with Fallout and Jagged Alliance 2 would have been much better alternatives to the POR2 reference that Gaider made.

I also think it's pretty fucking lame for some of the people on the Atari forums who more or less emigrated from the NWN forums (such as Volourn) just to attack Tim Cain and his team of very talented game developers with him, as J.E. pointed out - still on a gag order, unable to fully respond. Look, it's just a lame thing to do.

Also, I don't think Josh's envious of anyone - why, heck, he joined the fight against the horde of bastards who stormed the Atari forum just to complain about Troika and the bugs in ToEE, most of which are not serious at all. And for the record, Josh has NEVER 'barked angrily' as you so quaintly put it at Troika or its fans. Like I said earlier, he jumped to the defense, so it's not nice to go about ranting about issues only based on hearsay.

Okay?

J.E. Sawyer · Sep 27, 2003

Vault Dweller said:
Well, JE, the way I see it, it was directed at the interviewer who asked a dumb question and the whole notion that TB obsolete. I'm sure you'd agree that it's the companies who do RT DnD gams should be asked why, not the other way around. It doesn't imply that RT is wrong, bad, and sucks, but it's a deviation from the ruleset. You didn't have to take it personally unless you know something we don't (like what you and Tim talked about on that meeting :wink: )

Uh, what, I didn't take it personally, but it was obviously leveled at companies like Black Isle. Again, I saw Tim's comment before Mr. Teatime even brought it up. Mr. Teatime directed the question at me, so I answered it. I suppose I could have just not answered it, but... I was just stating my honest opinion to Mr. Teatime's question from Tim.

Was it your decision to do both TB and RT in VB? Was it your decision to do IWD2 they way it was done? No, according to your comments, so why take it personally. As far as I know, Tim never said JE sucks because...

And I never said Tim sucks.

An interviewer directed a question at Tim, Tim responded with a question. Mr. Teatime then directed that question to me, and I responded with my honest opinion.

I'd like to know how you think I should have replied, if not with my honest opinion.

I meant when you made a big post after Tim's interview trying to prove that it's not a true DnD adaptation anyway, 'cause it doesn't have horsies and jumping

Oh, that's certainly true, but it went beyond that. Horses, jumping, climbing, and a host of other things. It doesn't prevent the game from being great, but it's also not "OMG 100% D&D 2 THA MAXX"

I thought you were referring to Tim saying that ToEE was an adaptation of the classic module with great TB combat. That it is, most definitely.

And when did I say or even imply that Troika did a worse job on ToEE than Black Isle did on IWD?

"The smaller and less experienced IWD team, using someone else's engine, makes a mediocre game in 14 months. What logical reason can you give that a larger, more experienced ToEE team, using their own engine, cannot make a great game in 18 months?"

What?

Wait, what?

Did you read what I was responding to? Doomsayer claimed that it was ridiculous for Atari to believe that Troika could make ToEE a great game in 18 months. My response was challenging his assertion. I think it's perfectly reasonable that Atari believed they could do it. And they did... so... what's the problem, again?

EDIT: Yes, they were a little over their deadline, but they still made a great game, with a lot of content revisions in about 18 months.

Whipporowill · Sep 27, 2003

So... people have been flaming each other for nothing? Just an average fanboy day then, I guess? :roll:

Btw JE, if you want to do a TB game, leave the sinking ship before it drags you down with it. I think you have some good ideas, but theyÂ´re wasted were you are. Just my honest opinion, thatÂ´s all.

J.E. Sawyer · Sep 27, 2003

Whipporowill said:
Btw JE, if you want to do a TB game, leave the sinking ship before it drags you down with it. I think you have some good ideas, but theyÂ´re wasted were you are. Just my honest opinion, thatÂ´s all.

If I abandon my team, I don't know if I'd be able to respect myself. It can be very hard, at times, but what we are working on now is something that many of us have fought to work on for many years. It's something for which we have endured a great deal. We've had to make games that we weren't always proud of. We've had to try to deal with the fact that a lot of gamers either hate us or hate the company we work for, and don't respect us (which is understandable). We've had to watch some of our best friends and co-workers leave the company.

Personally, I had to accept that a game I worked on for two and a half years, that I put more creative energy into than anything else in my life, was indefinitely shelved. And I had to accept the responsibility of taking over the lead design position on Van Buren after Chris Avellone, who has far more respect among developers and fans, left the company. It's hard, but obviously, if I didn't think the trade-off was worth it, I wouldn't still be around.

I'm not a great designer, but I try, and this is what I've wanted to work on since 1999.

Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

Augur

Liturgist

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Arcane

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Arcane

Erudite

Augur

Arcane

Arcane

Codexia Lord Sodom

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Arcane

Arcane

Obsidian Entertainment

Arcane

Obsidian Entertainment

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Erudite

Obsidian Entertainment

Erudite

Obsidian Entertainment