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J.E. Sawyer challenge ? to Tim Cain.

chrisbeddoes

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This is a very important statement .
here
http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=225

Your opinions please.

Tim Cain said in interview here.
http://www.etoychest.org/interviews/interview_009.html

I am a little confused. D&D is a turn-based system, so I didn’t take ToEE anywhere. I am more surprised that you don’t wonder why the developers of those other games felt compelled to license a game system and then rewrite many of its rules to cover a mode of play that it was never intended to support. I wanted to make a computer game based on D&D, not some hybrid system that I invented myself.



J.E. Sawyer


I have met Mr. Cain only a few times. He is a very smart and cool man.

However, I will address this statement, and I'll be pretty blunt about it. The answer to his rhetorical question is: because you're putting a pen and paper game onto a computer. Isn't this obvious? This doesn't apply simply to "turn-based vs. real-time". It applies to every aspect of the game that you review for implementation.

The environment and atmosphere when you play a pen and paper game is not the same as when you are playing a CRPG, period -- especially a single player RPG. You have no DM, you have no other players. There is no soft adjudication for any given application of a combat rule or skill. There are no players chatting to each other softly and telling quiet jokes while all of the other participants in the battle play through their turns. Turn-based combat in a five or six person pen-and-paper game is not the same experience as it is in an CRPG. Even the most pedestrian turn-based battle in a pen-and-paper game can be made fun for all participants -- even if that combat takes two hours of real-world time. Your experience goes beyond the statistics of the characters involved and the mechanical choices you make to resolve that conflict.

But in a single-player CRPG, that is what you are left with. You can put every rule in the 3.5 PHB into a game to the letter, dot all is and cross all ts, but you are not going to get the same experience that you would in pen and paper. This is a different medium. You're playing all the members of your party without any soft adjudication from a DM. The manner in which you draw pleasure out of a combat is not going to be the same as it is with a group of live people sitting around you -- whether it is turn-based or real-time. D&D is a pen and paper role-playing game. By putting it on a computer, you are already trying to make it do something that it was not explicitly built for.

I'm certainly not going to slam Troika for making ToEE in the manner they are. I really want to play it. But all developers have to make implementation choices when dealing with a licensed ruleset. AFAIK, Troika isn't implementing the Jump or Climb skills in ToEE. I don't blame them for leaving that out -- those are hard to implement in a CRPG. But that does affect classes like the fighter and monk, who have those as some of their (very few) class skills.

In a pen and paper game, the player can ask the DM at any moment, "Hey, man, can I climb that tower/tree/rock/fallen giant's corpse?" and the DM can wing it. If the player wants to climb up a corpse and jump off behind some guy while making an attack, he can just ask the DM if he can do it. There's no mounted combat or mounted combat feats in ToEE, which affects the paladin. TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE, BECAUSE MOUNTED COMBAT SUCKS TO IMPLEMENT. Again, this is because you can't just say, "Oh, here's a pony, follow the rules." Lockpicking, picking pockets, sneaking. All those things you can't reload from in a pen and paper game -- they're different. It's a computer game, not a PnP game. How you make it, how you use it, the experience you take away from it can be completely different.

Oh yea . The same thing has been posted in duck and cover.
But this post is NOT to flame J.E. Sawyer and i predict that this is gonna happen in duck and cover.
 

Vault Dweller

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So, what's his point? The point that Tim Cain made is that RT forces to rewrite the rules completely, and that DnD is a TB game. He did not say or claim to have the EXACT rules implementation. I just lost my respect to Sawyer unless he's on crack and can't be responsible for the things he say under "influence" :lol:

Tim made his choice and left to do games that he wants, JE made his and stayed. There is no reason to bitch now and make embarassing statements.
 

HanoverF

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Not implementing is different from CHANGING.

Thats all there is too it.
 

Voss

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OK, Sawyer is arguing that Role-playing on a computer is different from Role-playing with PnP. OK. This is very true. Undeniably true.

(He goes on later in the thread, by the way, to nitpick that leaving out ranger's favored enemies because they aren't in that particular game would not be implementation exactly according to the rules. Again true... but.)

But honestly, if it isn't something thats going to feasible work in the format you're working with, it obviously isn't something you need to worry about. It'd be like watching a book turned movie and worrying about the lack of text or internal monologues. It simply isn't appropriate to the format.

And when you get right down to it, I'm not sure what Sawyer's point is. He's not really defending anything that involves things he worked on at BIS, and he really isn't doing anything at all beyond saying PnP is different from Computer-based. Possibly different people do different implementations, but not even really that.

So, point?
 

Jed

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Voss said:
So, point?
Hate to say it, but it sounds like Mr. Sawyer is being a wee bit defensive. Should've sat on that statement for a few days and then re-thought whether he really wanted to embarass himself so publicly.
 

Sharpei_Diem

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I think sawyer's point is that the different medium necessitates changing the rules. PnP DnD, by it's very nature, requires a turn based system and a CRPG doesn't. They made changes to enhance the experience on the medium it was played on - or at least, changes they thought would enhance the experience on fhe medium it was played on...

Actually, a pretty reasonable position...

yeah, i'd agree about the tone being defensive. lol...for someone stating that they're being 'blunt' he certainly went out of his way to be diplomatic...
 
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The funny thing is, attempts to make D&D RT have generally been pretty kludgy. I think that's what the issue is. Want to make a RT CRPG, hey, go ahead, but why not make the entire system RT from the start? That has far more to do with it than whether it's a computer game or not.
 

Vault Dweller

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Sharpei_Diem said:
I think sawyer's point is that the different medium necessitates changing the rules. PnP DnD, by it's very nature, requires a turn based system and a CRPG doesn't. They made changes to enhance the experience on the medium it was played on - or at least, changes they thought would enhance the experience on fhe medium it was played on...
What are you talking about? It does not matter that CRPGs may not require TB system, the point is that DnD is a turn-based system, any attempts to move it to a new system would change many rules or leave them out (attacks of opportunity). Take SPECIAL as an example. If you played the demo, do you think that SPECIAL in RT and with magic work the same way as in Fallout?

Walks with the Snails said:
Want to make a RT CRPG, hey, go ahead, but why not make the entire system RT from the start?
Pre-fucking-cisely
 

Briosafreak

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Sawyer saw that on NMA and added a few things:
It really wasn't intended to be antagonistic or confrontational towards Tim. But it's an unanswered question I had seen him pose in other interviews.
The bottom line for me is that rules are there to support and promote fun. The rules are not fun in and of themselves. It is the job of the designer to be devoted to making a fun player experience, not to be devoted to the rules.
A good example might be how ranger favored enemies are categorized in 3E. Technically speaking, a ranger can pick almost any race (though that may have changed in 3.5) as a favored enemy. You might choose to restrict that list only to races actually found in your CRPG. That makes sense, promotes fun, but isn't explicitly according to the rules.
However, rangers who pick certain favored enemies may find themselves with an exceedingly useless or exceedingly useful trait depending on how many creatures of race X are in the game. A little variation is to be expected, but if there are huge differences (150 goblins, 2 ogres), this becomes unfair. A PnP DM can tailor his or her campaign to the choices of the player. A CRPG has already made those choices before character creation takes place. Now, the designers of the CRPG could collapse ogres into a larger "goblinoid" type. That's reasonably fair, but again, not according to the rules.
On IWD2, our licensor believed that the invented feat "Fiendslayer" was too powerful, so we toned it down. The problem was that there were only a small handful of creatures in the game against which the feat was actually useful. The PnP designer balances for use in ANY game, but the CRPG designer usually has to balance for use in his or her SPECIFIC game.
Again, we all have to make choices. Trokia has made specific choices for ToEE as they have seen fit. BioWare made specific choices for NWN as they saw fit. This will continue as long as computer games are licensed from pen and paper games.

It`s on NMA
 

Vault Dweller

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Well, since this thread is dedicated to Sawyer's statements, challenges, and short stories, here is another contribution. It was posted before the official reply to Tim Cain, but there is an interesting part that you may find amusing:

JE Sawyer said:
Oh, so your opinion is that all real-time combat sucks? I guess that makes any and all of your comments on the relative merits of any real-time combat system completely irrelevant.

Here's a suggestion for future critics of real-time combat: telling me that you inherently hate all real-time combat and following it up with complaints about a specific implementation of real-time combat is pretty worthless.

"I HATE ALL PEARS!"

"Do you eat pears?"

"NO, OF COURSE NOT. I HATE THEM."

"We have pears and oranges for sale today."

"I'LL TAKE A PEAR."

*customer bites into pear*

"GAAAH! THIS PEAR SUCKS! GOD, I HATE IT!"

"Yes, but that's why we have both pears and ora--"

"ARE YOU COMPLETE AND TOTAL MORON?! DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT YOU COULD HAVE SPENT MONEY BUYING MORE HIGH QUALITY ORANGES THAN STUPID, IDIOTIC, STUPID, DUMB PEARS?!"

"I suppose that's true, but then people who hate oranges woul--"

"WHO CARES ABOUT THEM? THOSE PEOPLE ARE SIMPLETONS! LISTEN TO ME! I AM THE TRUE FAN OF MARKET PRODUCE! WHO EVER HEARD OF A FRUIT CONNOISSEUR WHO LIKED PEARS? THE VERY IDEA IS RIDICULOUS! THIS STAND USED TO ONLY SELL ORANGES. I WAS ONE OF ITS FIRST CUSTOMERS!"

"I understand that, but there are a lot of people who like pea--"

"OH, SO IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, I SEE! BACK WHEN THIS WAS POP CAIN'S FRUIT STAND, I DON'T REMEMBER ANY OF THIS PEAR IDIOCY!"

*customer storms off*
It seems to me that pop Cain's fame troubles young Sawyer, wouldn't you agree?
 

Crazy Tuvok

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I like JE and do not envy his situation over at BIS; that said - what was he thinking posting this? What fucking difference does it make what Tim and Co over at Troika are doing? I may be wrong but I don't recall Tim ever personally addresssing the work at BIS nor saying anything disparaging about it other than (paraphrase) "I am more surprised you don't ask why people tried to make DnD real time" (oops sorry Volourn RT *with* pause). In fact it was on these boards where Tim posted his explicit respect for JE.
Sounds like JE is a little defensive to me as well; kinda understandable I guess as any hardcore players left over at the IPLY boards inevitably invoke Tim as the Gaming God - but that is only because Tim really is.
And the pears/oranges analogy does not really work. It would be more like a fruit stand being forced to sell both pears and oranges and therefore neither one being as good as if they could sell exclusively one.
 

Rabby

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My sympathies with Mr. Sawyer on this one.

Regardless of whether or not Mr. Cain intended to insinuate at Bioware, I think the parallelism is made, and boy do I agree with Cain on this one! To alter the rules unnecessarily, and unnecessarily being the big bold-faced word in this sentence, seems to me merely asking for trouble in balancing and working out gameplay mechanics. Changing an inherently turn-based system to realtime-with-pause, in my very humble opinion, would be an unnecessary change. Whether this decision was made to jump on the Diablo bandwagon, or in good will to improve the product, I really can't say. Granted, I think the combat in the BG series work, though I'll never get over how frustrated I've been at the beginning in watching my mage stand there taking blow after blow and ignoring my command at casting that Stoneskin. (I've never been too familiar with the D&D rules, and didn't realize that my mage could only cast one spell per round) It's only after I tried to understand the underlying ruleset, and the overlaying of a realtime-with-pause interface, that I could know exactly what's happening, and this, I believe, is what Mr. Cain is suggesting in his response to the first interview question. Which actually has made me reflect on whether or not the BG-series have made the best choice in implementing real-time-with-pause. Though I still love the BG games, I'm looking more and more forward to the Temple of Elemental Evil. By the minute. :D

Now, onto the sympathy part. I think Mr. Sawyer doesn't have any choice but to defend his design decisions -- he's talked about his choices continuously with Fallout fans on the forums, and even if he was coerced into including a realtime option by folks wearing expensive suits, I think he at least wants to make the best out of it. Being optimistic and supportive of the decision is a start, and I'd certainly prefer to see a Sawyer defending and supporting a dual-system than secretly complaining about it to everyone while saying that he's forced to include it.

So. . . in conclusion, I'd say that Mr. Cain made much more sense in good, straightforward logic, whereas Mr. Sawyer's defense borders on mere philosophy of doing-what-works. The philosophy is good, and the passion is moving, but at the moment, I have more faith in ToEE than Van Buren.
 

Crazy Tuvok

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If Josh was forced into the inclusion of a hybrd system, and he said pretty openly that he was, then he could ignore the complaints about it altogether. I doubt very much that there is some exec at IPLY forcing him to post his defenese of the system on the boards (tho come to think of it it wouldn't surprise me if there were such an exec). He could just ignore the debate instead of making arguments that don't withstand any scrutiny or criticizing those who were not forced into any such silliness, i.e. Troika.
ToEE is getting a lot of positive pub and when it sells well, which I think it will, perhaps the next iteration of FO will be straight tb - the way it was intended to be all the time.
 

Rabby

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Crazy Tuvok said:
If Josh was forced into the inclusion of a hybrd system, and he said pretty openly that he was, then he could ignore the complaints about it altogether.

I suppose he could, but I think it's more positive to accept something that doesn't seem to be able to change, and then work as well as you can from that foundation. In defending his position, I feel that Mr. Sawyer is investing the effort and hot-luvin' into this project. If he gave up completely on the issue, I'd feel worse for Van Buren.

Granted, if that post is a hot-headed response, my point is much less viable, but I'm inclined to believe that, even if parts of it is induced by embarrassment/anger, he is still defending a point that he believes.
 

Crazy Tuvok

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Admittedly I didn't trudge thru all 16 pages of the thread at IPLY, mostly because it reads like every other TB v RT thread ever created after about 3 pages, but if JE wanted to post something constructive and reassuring defending the choice then how about a thread where he can be more explicit about how BIS plans to succeed where everyone else has failed - making an rt/tb system that doesn't fubar both?

If he has and anyone knows about it could they link it?
 

HanoverF

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Why do I get the feeling in Fallo... oops I mean in Van Buren there will be Crazy Tom Kaines Produce stand with the proprietor yelling about the superiority of Oranges...
 

Vault Dweller

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Crazy Tuvok said:
how about a thread where he can be more explicit about how BIS plans to succeed where everyone else has failed - making an rt/tb system that doesn't fubar both?
I often wondered the same, so far there hasn't been a single example of a successful implementation of both. Sawyer's only (and pretty lame) argument is that IF we have both, then everybody's happy. That's a pretty big fucking IF to me. Even if that's were possible there is still an issue of game difficulty. Balance the game for RT and it would be impossible in TB, balance it for TB and it would be boring in RT. I killed more enemies in the first few missions in FOT, then in entire FO1 playing a fighting character.
 

Whipporowill

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You can't make everyone happy, that's the thing. You can't do both RT and TB and make it work 100%. Arcanum, proved that - although I'm sure it could've worked at least somewhat better. I wouldn't mind if you could choose mode for every rpg IF it worked as great as if only one of the modes was implemented.

While on the RT vs TB bandwagon. Combat in BG was stellar compared to the inane hack n slash of Lionheart. At least in the demo.

I think JE's point is rather moot. D&D is turnbased. That's the way it is, and what Tim's saying about that is his personal opinion, rather than having a pot shot at BIS. At least to me.
 

Jed

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I think having both could work if you chose at the beginning and the game was balanced for the choice, and that choice was locked-in. Maybe. A lot more work, though.
 

Volourn

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Bah. Cain vs. Sawyer vs. Gaider. Who cares about this. Apparantly for some reason we all do. It shouldn't matter. If you like the games each makes; play them; if you don't don't. That's the best solution (though not the fun one).
 

Jed

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Volourn said:
Bah. Cain vs. Sawyer vs. Gaider. Who cares about this. Apparantly for some reason we all do. It shouldn't matter. If you like the games each makes; play them; if you don't don't. That's the best solution (though not the fun one).
Again, Volourn, this is What We Do at the 'Codex. To play off an established (though flawed) analogy: If you don't like Oranges, why do you keep hanging around the Orange stand?
 

Volourn

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If you noticed, I included myself in the quation. Geez.... Someone takes himself too seriously. It wasn't an insult to anyone. I am here because I am an "orange".
 

Sol Invictus

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So what Mr. Sawyer is actually saying is that Turn-Based games are boring because the player is left to his own devices instead of having the game play itself for him.

Someone ought to bring up the point that games like Civilization series, Heroes of Might and Magic series, Age of Wonders, Master of Magic, X-Com and Jagged Alliance 2 were some of the most exciting and suspenseful games ever made, especially in the case of X-Com and Jagged Alliance 2. Certainly, there's no players to chat with each other but that doesn't eradicate the whole 'strategic thinking' factor that most of those games possess. It's one thing to have real-time strategy game like Warcraft 3, Myth II or the Total War series to possess strategy and suspense, but without all of the resource management and other related features, all that is left is a hollow shell -- which is what most real-time RPGs seem to be.

Besides, what ever features that TOEE has, no matter hwo limited, is going to be less limited than anything offered by a real-time game with the 3E rules.
 

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