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The art of reading between the lines - a FO3 thread

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Apparently, a lot of people process information exclusively at face value, without trying to think about it for a second and figure out what ELSE a simple and seemingly harmless fact implies. I see this as an opportunity to make a buck, so from now on we'll be offering reasonably priced, very affordable services aimed at educating masses and helping you discover the mysteries of game development. So, if you are reading this thread please donate $99.42 cents to the Codex immediately. No, it's too late to close this tab, I saw you, so pay up, bitch! Tell you what, pay now and we'll throw you a horse armor set I made when I was a kid for free.

Anyway...

* * * * * Liam Neeson to Play Lead Role in Fallout 3 * * * * *

Neeson will play the role of the player’s father and will appear prominently throughout the game. ... This role was written with Liam in mind, and provides the dramatic tone for the entire game.
...

On the surface this little snippet only says that Liam provided his voice to the game, which is like TEH AWSOME!!!! because I want Liam to teach me the way of the Jedi in Fallout 3, but let's dig a bit deeper.

1. The player's father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game.

The father thing implies that your character is young. It also casts you into a specific role, instead of allowing you to play the "it came from the wastes" unknown drifter character.

The "appears prominently" and "dramatic tone" things imply that the father is important/ a part of the story. I like family dramas in a post-apocalyptic game as much as the next guy, but what bothers me is that the "prominent appearance" strongly implies linearity. Think Half-Life 2. Granted, there was no father there, but there was a fatherly character, whom you had to see first and then rescue a few times. Prominently means that your father will make scheduled appearances, which implies that no matter what you do between the appearances, the sequence and the story will not be changed by your actions.

Now the drama thing. That can only mean that your dad will either get killed eventually or turn evil and will have to be put down like a rabid dog. Knowing Bethesda, the second thing is unlikely. I doubt they would want to expose the 12 year old kids to "Your dad is evil. Kill him now!" scenarios to prevent class-action lawsuits, so most likely we'll be dealing with a wise mentor dad who will die in the end Uriel Septim style.

Btw, the "lead role"? I thought the game was about my character dealing with some shit, not about watching Liam leading the story toward the inevitable and dramatic conclusion.

2. The dialogue is voiced by a super expensive celebrity, which means Oblivion style "5 words per sentence, one sentence per screen" dialogues. It also implies more linearity, as I doubt that your dad or other characters would have two or more different lines per quest. So, you'll have to jump through some linear hoops, coming back to listen to Liam and other voice actor's reassuring voices between quests.

While the game may still have multiple choices, deeper than Yes/No/Whatever, it's unlikely that the voiced-over responses will change to reflect your choice.

Liam: You must leave our little village, my child. Travel the new world, join a guild or two, then come back and listen to my awesome voice some more.

- Yes, father.
You must leave right away.

- I don't want to go
You must leave right away.

- Aren't you going to teach my the ways of the Jedi first?
You must leave right away.

3. What else does Liam's cast tell us about the game? It looks like Bethesda still refuses to acknowledge the Fallout fans as the target audience and keeps aiming at the mass market. "Hey, guys, come and play our game! It has Liam Neeson and it looks pretty!" Instead of reassuring fans that the game will have some Fallout-like qualities, Bethesda follows the Oblivion formula. If you recall, for the first year or so the only features Bethesda talked about were Patrick Stewart!!!, soil erosion, and virtual forests, which explains why Oblivion was such an amazing game.

So, what do we have so far? A linear post-apocalyptic adventure with your father, linear quests, Oblivion-like dialogues, DRAMA!, and mass-marketization of Fallout 3.

Stay tuned for our next episode or listen to our guest speakers:

Section8: "I have to say, this is the first clear evidence of the sort of shit that has been foreshadowing for ages now. Having a father that features "prominently throughout" the game is a pretty clear indication that Bethesda are doing away with Fallout's solitude, blank slate RPGing and focus on player authored narrative. It's also showing that they don't seem like straying from Oblivion's blockbuster formula, where big name actors take precedence over any kind of development talent or integrity.

Not that I really expected anything other, but even highly improbably dreams can take a kick in guts."

Dark Underlord: "In both the Fallouts, you were a lone individual. Your background and who you were was left up to you. I liked that aspect of just being a nameless, unknown adventurer. Here, it looks like we have a whole family that we're supposed to care about."

Ladonna: "Mother sold seperately."
 

Vault Dweller

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Disagree with my conclusions? Argue, present a different point of view and explain why.
 

Excrément

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:shock: I am shocked, VD is saying something smart.

but you may add to balance a little that the two arts are great and we may not have shiny kiddy graphics this time.
 

Kingston

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I lack the wit to put something hilarious here
And the devs provide some insights aswell.

http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index ... &p=9981488


What's your favorite thing about Oblivion (besides your paycheck! Wink)

I enjoy the freedom of Oblivion. It's something that I enjoyed about the Elder Scrolls since I first popped in the discs for Arena. From the top down, the games have always tried to place as few restrictions as possible on the player. Don't like this quest? Do another. Don't like the damage on that sword? Change it.
 

dagorkan

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Vault Dweller said:
1. The player's father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game.

It implies you are young [snip BS]

False. Fallout 1 might have cast you in the role - not totally since you were fixed as some person from a specific Vault. Fallout 2 definitely does not. You are a young person from a retarded tribal community and are portrayed that way (through NPC dialog) all the way through. You have an elderly aunt, people are initially prejudiced against you suggesting you are a savage etc from first appearances.

You could play it differently but it was all very unrealistic. Where did you learn about lockpicking and computer tech when your whole family are a bunch of stoned stone agers?

2. The dialogue is voiced by a super expensive celebrity, which means Oblivion style "5 words per sentence, one sentence per screen" dialogues.

False. Text is not expensive. You can have voiced dialog (featured prominently for major characters in F1) and text - not everything said by a specific character has to be voiced.

It also implies more linearity

Probably true.

What else does Liam's cast tell us about the game? It looks like Bethesda still refuses to acknowledge the Fallout fans as the target audience and keeps aiming at the mass market.

Tell me, why the fuck should Beth care about a few hundred whiners on NMA? Should they be acknowledged? Should every crying, tantrum-throwing toddler be paid attention to? Experience shows that it only encourages bad behavior.

Why don't you defend yourself in the Gothic 3 thread?
 

Vault Dweller

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@ Excrément: I don't think anyone has a doubt that the game will look great. As for the concept art, these two pieces say a lot about the game's direction, but that's a story for another episode.
 

Lumpy

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Sir_Brennus said:
Moron. Everything VD said here is spot on. Entirely. Sure, you could assume that Beth didn't really mean what they said, but we already did that with Oblivion. And guess what? They really did mean it.

On the other hand,
Vault Dweller said:
Dark Underlord: "In both the Fallouts, you were a lone individual. Your background and who you were was left up to you. I liked that aspect of just being a nameless, unknown adventurer. Here, it looks like we have a whole family that we're supposed to care about."
That is pure bullshit. In Fallout 1 you were a Vault Dweller who wanted to help his vault. The rest was left to you, but that was forced. If you attacked another vault dweller you lost. If you didn't get the water chip you lost.
And in Fallout 2, despite what DU says, you had a Mother. And a village, which you wanted to help just as much. That was your whole purpose, no matter what kind of character you played. And while in Fallout 1 you had a basic option to join the antagonist, Fallout 2 didn't offer any such choice.
Face it, neither Fallout game offered the freedom of character that Planescape did. Maybe Van Buren would have, but it's dead.
Now, I'm not saying, not in the least, that Fallout 3 should make the mistakes that the first games did. Nor that they are excusable in any way. Bethesda should learn from both the groundbreaking elements and the shortcomings of the original games.
 

Callaxes

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Are we going to start the whole "awesome voice" jokes again? The Patrick Stewart ones were annoying as hell and I don't want to hear about a guy who I can't even pronounce his name right.
 

Sir_Brennus

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Vault Dweller said:
Disagree with my conclusions? Argue, present a different point of view and explain why.

I did that already in another thread, but your are in a very much more comfortable position, because your post now preaches to the choir once again.

I'll say as much: I think that it was clear from the outset that Bethesda won't be able to create stellar non-linearity like FO1/2 had, because of their track record.

It was also decidly clear from the outset that they would try to raise the mainstream appeal for FO3 by using their tested and trieded hype machine tactics. Hiring a "serious" voice actor in a prominent role is one of these, BUT your interpretation of the wording is redicously overstreched. Let me give an example: Is the Overseer of Vault13 an important NPC in FO1? Is he a kind of father figure like the Arroyo village elder in FO2? Do you repeatedly visit him in order to progress the story (one way or the other)? Why shouldn't this kind of character that one that is voiced by Liam Neeson?

I also gave Section8 a fine taste of his own cock by quoting him and tried to argue, that you could say things like these about hiring Michael Dorn as a NPC with-a-twist named Marcus, which not only resembles Worf physically, but also in psyche.

But, alas, that won't be heard here.

Don't get me wrong: I thing FO3 will probably suck, but I can't imagine myself to be convinced by your quotations about the hiring of a voice actor.
 

Vault Dweller

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dagorkan said:
Vault Dweller said:
1. The player's father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game.

It implies you are young [snip BS]

False. [snip BS]
I doubt that a father will play a large role in the life and adventures of a mature character, especially in the wasteland, where people don't tend to live long and medicare and dental aren't easily available.

You could play it differently but it was all very unrealistic. Where did you learn about lockpicking and computer tech when your whole family are a bunch of stoned stone agers?
I'm sure you are aware that the tribal thing was always criticized and that overall FO2 was a crappy, inconsistent game in the setting/storyline departments.

False. Text is not expensive. You can have voiced dialog (featured prominently for major characters in F1) and text - not everything said by a specific character has to be voiced.
Well, it aint F1 and we are not going to party like it's 1995 again. On top of that it's Bethesda, so you can be rest assured that it's a full voice-over PC/console game with nice, large font for easy reading.

Tell me, why the fuck should Beth care about a few hundreds whiners on NMA? Should they be acknowledged? Should every crying, tantrum-throwing toddler be paid attention to?
Because the Fallout games have sold more than "a few hundreds" copies

Why don't you defend yourself in the Gothic 3 thread?
I haven't read the thread, but I will take a look now.
 

Sander

Educated
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Mar 22, 2006
Messages
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Vault Dweller said:
Apparently, a lot of people process information exclusively at face value, without trying to think about it for a second and figure out what ELSE a simple and seemingly harmless fact implies. I see this as an opportunity to make a buck, so from now on we'll be offering reasonably priced, very affordable services aimed at educating masses and helping you discover the mysteries of game development. So, if you are reading this thread please donate $99.42 cents to the Codex immediately. No, it's too late to close this tab, I saw you, so pay up, bitch! Tell you what, pay now and we'll throw you a horse armor set I made when I was a kid for free.

Anyway...

* * * * * Liam Neeson to Play Lead Role in Fallout 3 * * * * *

Neeson will play the role of the player’s father and will appear prominently throughout the game. ... This role was written with Liam in mind, and provides the dramatic tone for the entire game.
...

On the surface this little snippet only says that Liam provided his voice to the game, which is like TEH AWSOME!!!! because I want Liam to teach me the way of the Jedi in Fallout 3, but let's dig a bit deeper.

1. The player's father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game.

The father thing implies that your character is young.
It does?
My father is 33 years older than I am, and even with that relatively large age difference (I believe that the average lies around 25 years or so), the range still gets you up to, say, 50 years old.

Of course, Bethesda will probably create a specific 50-year-old face instead of a generic face aged between 50-80, but whatever.
vDweller said:
It also casts you into a specific role, instead of allowing you to play the "it came from the wastes" unknown drifter character.
You didn't play that role in Fallout 1 or 2 either, you had a specific background: in Fallout 1 you came from a Vault, being elected to save it. In Fallout 2 you came from a tribal village and you were elected to, heh, save it. In both cases there was a father-like character giving you help throughout your quest.

The fact that you have a father doesn't need to restrict your roleplaying ability, nor does it say anything about you other than 'you have a father', which, you know, is pretty damned obvious.

That's not to say that I don't expect the father to become a way for the player's hand to be held, but it leaves lots of room in theory.
VDweller said:
The "appears prominently" and "dramatic tone" things imply that the father is important/ a part of the story. I like family dramas in a post-apocalyptic game as much as the next guy, but what bothers me is that the "prominent appearance" strongly implies linearity. Think Half-Life 2. Granted, there was no father there, but there was a fatherly character, whom you had to see first and then rescue a few times. Prominently means that your father will make scheduled appearances, which implies that no matter what you do between the appearances, the sequence and the story will not be changed by your actions.
Hakunin and The Overseer featured 'prominently' in the first games as well. Moreso than Patrick Stewart did in Oblivion, even.

VDweller said:
Now the drama thing. That can only mean that your dad will either get killed eventually or turn evil and will have to be put down like a rabid dog. Knowing Bethesda, the second thing is unlikely. I doubt they would want to expose the 12 year old kids to "Your dad is evil. Kill him now!" scenarios to prevent class-action lawsuits, so most likely we'll be dealing with a wise mentor dad who will die in the end Uriel Septim style.
Drama:
1. a composition in prose or verse presenting in dialogue or pantomime a story involving conflict or contrast of character, esp. one intended to be acted on the stage; a play.

Not Drama:
1. Someone gets killed.

The Overseer set the dramatic tone for the game as well: you need to hurry the fuck up or everyone in the vault dies.
VDweller said:
Btw, the "lead role"? I thought the game was about my character dealing with some shit, not about watching Liam leading the story toward the inevitable and dramatic conclusion.
..
It says he 'leads the cast', not the game. Patrick Stewart 'led the cast' in Oblivion, but didn't do much in the game itself.

VDweller said:
2. The dialogue is voiced by a super expensive celebrity, which means Oblivion style "5 words per sentence, one sentence per screen" dialogues. It also implies more linearity, as I doubt that your dad or other characters would have two or more different lines per quest. So, you'll have to jump through some linear hoops, coming back to listen to Liam and other voice actor's reassuring voices between quests.
I can't believe that people keep on forgetting that Fallout had the biggest cast of stars pretty much ever, up to that point.
 

Vault Dweller

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Lumpy said:
That is pure bullshit. In Fallout 1 you were a Vault Dweller who wanted to help his vault.
Uh, actually, you drew the short straw and got kicked out. Try to get back to the vault when the game starts.

If you didn't get the water chip you lost.
That was the purpose of the game, no?

And in Fallout 2, despite what DU says, you had a Mother.
It was in the Bible, not in the game.
 

Vault Dweller

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Sir_Brennus said:
...BUT your interpretation of the wording is redicously overstreched. Let me give an example: Is the Overseer of Vault13 an important NPC in FO1? Is he a kind of father figure like the Arroyo village elder in FO2? Do you repeatedly visit him in order to progress the story (one way or the other)? Why shouldn't this kind of character that one that is voiced by Liam Neeson?
No. I visited the Overseer once and I talked to the elder twice in the entire game. Both characters could hardly be described as prominent figures, playing lead roles and providing dramatic overtones to the entire games. Try again.
 

JarlFrank

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Sander said:
Hakunin and The Overseer featured 'prominently' in the first games as well. Moreso than Patrick Stewart did in Oblivion, even.

Wait a minute... they were featured prominently? Actually only in key events, this is, bringing back the water chip or having vanquished the mutant army.
And that shaman woman in FO2? Well... in the beginning, maybe?

I never finished both Fallouts, but played them for quite long [still didn't complete the main quests yet, that is, finding the chip or the GECK.] and the only time those two played a role in the games was in the beginning.

So please don't talk crap. You don't go back to them and ask them for advice after every quest you completed.
 
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First of all, good post, i have made some thoughts too.

i have already read between the lines and come to the conclusion, that it`ll be a FPS/Third Person Shooter. Pete Hines words "We`ll do what we do best." were the most truest words spoken. I find it strange, when somebody thinks that with Emil P. the game could become the Fallout game we want, especially because the fact that he is famous by Thief Stealth games, FirstPerson/Third Person. Except some dumbed down Stealth-modus from his mastermind. Morrowind with guns is probably the more realistic term for that game. But o´well they still have a chance to convince me, though, one word "tits".
 

Sander

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JarlFrank said:
Wait a minute... they were featured prominently? Actually only in key events, this is, bringing back the water chip or having vanquished the mutant army.
And the end and beginning of the game, and he functioned as an explicit help-point in the game. He was easily the voiced character with the most dialogue in the entire game, and I suspect he has the most dialogue of anyone in the game.

JarlFrank said:
And that shaman woman in FO2? Well... in the beginning, maybe?
You're confusing two people. There was the Elder, who featured in the beginning and on the Oil Platform. Then there was the Shaman, who featured much more prominently. He featured in the beginning as a small quest/help-point, he featured throughout the game as 'get on with it'-guy in the dreams, and he featured as the man who told you what happened at your village when you get the GECK.

That's pretty prominently, really. Much more prominently than any other character (except *maybe* Sulik) at least.
JarlFrank said:
I never finished both Fallouts, but played them for quite long [still didn't complete the main quests yet, that is, finding the chip or the GECK.] and the only time those two played a role in the games was in the beginning.

So please don't talk crap. You don't go back to them and ask them for advice after every quest you completed.
I'm sorry, you're the one who didn't even complete the games and hence have no clue what you're talking about, yet you claim that *I*'m the one talking crap?
 

Vault Dweller

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Sander said:
1. The player's father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game.

The father thing implies that your character is young.
It does?
My father is 33 years older than I am, and even with that relatively large age difference (I believe that the average lies around 25 years or so), the range still gets you up to, say, 50 years old.
Have I claimed that only teenagers have fathers? My point was that it's very unlikely that your father will be older than 40-45 years old. They said that the role was written for Liam's. What kinda role do you think it is? An old goat sitting in a cave or a mentor- warrior in his prime? Take a guess.

You didn't play that role in Fallout 1 or 2 either, you had a specific background: in Fallout 1 you came from a Vault, being elected to save it. In Fallout 2 you came from a tribal village and you were elected to, heh, save it. In both cases there was a father-like character giving you help throughout your quest.
Once you left the vault/village you were on your own, without prominently appearing father providing some drama, no? So, what help did the Overseer/Elder provide *throughout* your quest? I must have missed that part.

The fact that you have a father doesn't need to restrict your roleplaying ability, nor does it say anything about you other than 'you have a father', which, you know, is pretty damned obvious.
The wishful thinking is strong in this one. I hope you agree that "father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game" is a little bit different than a generic "you have a father" background.
 

Sander

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Vault Dweller said:
Have I claimed that only teenagers have fathers? My point was that it's very unlikely that your father will be older than 40-45 years old. They said that the role was written for Liam's. What kinda role do you think it is? An old goat sitting in a cave or a mentor- warrior in his prime? Take a guess.
He only voices him, but thanks for ignoring my disclaimer as to what I expected.

Vault Dweller said:
Once you left the vault/village you were on your own, without prominently appearing father providing some drama, no? So, what help did the Overseer/Elder provide *throughout* your quest? I must have missed that part.
See my reply to Jarlfrank.
Vault Dweller said:
The wishful thinking is strong in this one. I hope you agree that "father, appearing prominently throughout the game and providing the dramatic tone for the entire game" is a little bit different than a generic "you have a father" background.
Nope. That depends entirely on how they implement it.

As I said, I *expect* them to muck it up and use him as a way to hold the hand of the player. But there are plenty of ways to implement this that that doesn't happen.
Again: see Uriel Septim. He was said to play a prominent role in the game, but he barely features in the game.
 

Sir_Brennus

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Full ACK, Sander! I think it's telling that we both had the same idea and wrote virutally the same reply.

@VD
This interpretation isn't anything more wishful thinking as yours is paranoid thinking. The fact that Sander and me felt that the Overseer was a father figure, albeit a harsh one, should allow another interpretation as yours.
 

JarlFrank

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Sander said:
I'm sorry, you're the one who didn't even complete the games and hence have no clue what you're talking about, yet you claim that *I*'m the one talking crap?

I know that I played the games for quite long and the only time when I needed those oh so prominently featured characters was in the beginning. If they were *really* prominently featured characters, I would already have had to meet them again, no?

The simple fact that you can go back at any time for advice doesn't mean they are featured throughout the game. Most of the time you will have nothing to do with them.
 

MisterStone

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At the very least the got a decent actor for the game... but they must have paid a heavy nickel for Neesom. Patrick Stewart was a lame fanboy choice.... seriously, what has the man done except for Star Drek and some cheezy Shakespeare remake movies? He's the kind of guy you expect to see making the tour at gaming/SF conventions next to the guy who played Chewbacca.

Neesom on the other hand is a very talented actor with some strong work to his name.

What does all this have to do with producing a video game? Fuck all.
 

Excrément

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Vault Dweller said:
@ Excrément: I don't think anyone has a doubt that the game will look great. As for the concept art, these two pieces say a lot about the game's direction, but that's a story for another episode.

the Oblivion art sucked, so at least we can hope an improvement on this point.
 

dagorkan

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Didn't Fallout 2 feature a woman who was your aunt in Arroyo? I can't remember.
 

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