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What is it about BioWare...

Nomad

Novice
Joined
Apr 17, 2003
Messages
99
I'm generally not one to start threads, but having lurked here for several months, I'm curious as to the origin of all the anti-BioWare sentiment on these boards.

I've played all of BioWare's D&D games, even Black Isle's games that use BioWare's Infinity Engine and enjoyed them all. While some I enjoyed more than others, I never felt as if I was taken advantage of or led astray by some deliberately misleading advertising campaign. In each and every case I always felt as if I'd gotten more than my money's worth of entertainment from their products. Also, Bio's employees always seem approachable on their community site and their Live Team seems truly responsive to the desires of their customers. I just don't know what else I can reasonably expect from them or any other company for that matter.

Jeez, I just re-read that and it sounds like I'm writing an endorsement - I'm not trying to, really!

I guess what I'm asking is: what are they doing wrong? I mean, it must be something HUGE to warrant the kind of venom I see being spewed at them - almost like it's personal or something.


N.
 

Eldar

Novice
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
68
I don't know what everyone else has against Bioware (Okay, I have an idea, but I'll let them speak for themselves) but I was greatly disappointed by NWN. Some folks might have been anti-Bioware from the whole debacle with Interplay. I'm definitely not one of them. I thought Bioware had a right to look out for its own interests. I still do.

I'm not anti-Bioware at all. ...But I'm not too keen on the amount of hype for Neverwinter Nights spewed from the mouth of Bioware before I bought the game and managed to convince three of my friends to buy the game sight unseen. They forgive me. Wish I could say the same for myself. Yes, I enjoyed every single IE game from BG to IWD2. Bioware managed to come out with a game that fell so far below expectations that I wonder if there had been some personel changes during development. Surely the writers couldn't have been that bad all along...

Anyhow, one game does not a fan break. I'll reserve judgement until KotOR hits the shelves. Then I'll judge.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
First would be the hype that they spew every time they open their mouth.
Second would be the crap pathfinding and other technical aspects of their games. For being "current", they sure do have some shitty AI and pathfinding. Hell, they had crap pathfinding for ten years previous to when Baldur's Garbage was released.
Then you have one of BioWare's twatwaffles go on cluelessly, showing exactly how poor their design ability tends to be.

And really, compared to the gameplay in Fallout, the Inbred Engine games are nothing more than a half-ass D&D rip-off flavoring in RT+pause. There's far less ability to roleplay a type of character in BioWare games than in Fallout, Fallout 2, or Arcanum, and they say they take great lengths to try and come up with better design, yet that too turns out to be hyperbole in design and often ridiculous with lacking balance or practical design.

Frankly, I find their work nauseating when compared to Gold Box or Silver Box. BioWhore's corny BS with the Star Wars license doesn't look any better than their D&D fare, either.
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
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Location
Budapest, Hungary
I'm not really a Bioware-hater either, though I must say I'm disappointed with their recent offerings. I really, really dislike NWN and what it turned out to be, though I admit I had a fair bit of fun [even if it quickly got old, thanks to the engine's limitations] by playing online. I'm also among the few here [:P] who liked BG1-2, even though I don't consider it a CRPG, more like a team-based tactical game like IWD; it's actually pretty fun with the right mods.

That said, KotOR isn't turning out to be a good game, judging from the previews (omg lightsaber colorz!!11 and crystals. Like diablo 2. sigh), so I'm not looking forward to it too much.

Oh yeah, be sure to read this thread as well.

-- Z.
 

Araanor

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Oct 24, 2002
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Mediocre games. Massive hype. Dumb devs.

They're just too easy to ridicule. Make a forum search on Bioware and read.
 

Sammael

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May 16, 2003
Messages
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Hell on Earth
I have been anti-BioWare ever since the Throne of Crap. Baldur's Gate (and, to a lesser extent, Baldur's Gate II) were pretty decent games. Even though I prefer TB combat, I think both games would have been much worse with TB combat, given BioWare's inability to correctly implement even the most basic D&D rules.
 

Sabotai

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
304

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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I can see how a person could be curious about all anti-BioWare sentiments here. My answer is simple. Considering that making games is a form of art, BioWare represents a corporate take on that aimed at mass market. As a result their games are intentially dumbed down and simplified, from character development to combat. As one avid BW fan said you can "just sit back and let the AI do the job when your brain isn't necessary." I love this phrase, I really do.

So while the masses may have a different opinion about BG series, NWN, its expansions, and upcoming KotOR, it's also clear why people who reside at a website called RPG Codex would dislike and have a problem with RPG games that have no role-playing whatsover. Does that answer your question?
 

Saint_Proverbius

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One thing I really don't like about them is one of the reasons I don't like MicroSoft. They've basically made something inferior, it got popular, and the areas they're working in have been screwed because of this. Baldur's Gate certainly didn't advance the genre at all, and given Fallout came out a year before that, it's popular certainly set the genre backwards rather than the logical advancement of the genre.
 
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
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Location
Chicago. And damn anyone who is not the same.
Microsoft has come close to repentance.
It's operating systems are still not using open source, which is stupid, but some of their other things are of amazing quality. Their game divison is insane in terms of domination of the RTS sector, and it's quality control on Games is undeniable, dispite the rather mediocre film Dungeon Seige.
Bio? Bio Haters have a point- I enjoyed NWN for all of about six days, and am not that excited about Kotor either.
 

Section8

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I think my biggest irritation is the fact that every single time I read a press release, an interview or anything else from the dev's, it's this shameless black-slapping of how they're the greatest developers the world has ever seen, and getting better with each release. They then go into details and say that they emply the greatest coders/artists/writers, when clearly they're mediocre in most fields. That irritates me. If they actually believe the shit they spew, then there's no chance of them ever learning from their mistakes.

Which comes to my second point. I disagree with most game design philosophies that Bioware games exhibit. To me it seems as though they basically work exculsively in the world of "Wouldn't it be cool if?" and don't consider any kind of rationale behind the design choices they make beyond that. So basically you get a whole bunch of stuff that is poorly thought out, but maybe cool if you aren't too discerning with your games.

The third aspect of Bioware that irritates me is very similar to the first, and that is the fact that through whatever means, they're capable of manipulating a lot of gaming press to shamelessly fellate them, and spit out obvious falsehoods in the few moments when they can actually speak audibly around the thorny, multiheaded and gnarled member they're choking on.

In a nutshell, Bioware's way of running things makes me sick. It typefies so many things that have a negative impact on this once great industry.

My final point deals with the games themselves, and incorporates the above three points. The fact that Bioware release mediocre, poorly thought out games that receive rave reviews, undeserved sales on a wave of empty hype, means that the clueless imitators are going to be imitating other clueless imitators. It's the blind leading the blind, and that's never a good thing.
 

Sabotai

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
304
Eldar said:
Bioware managed to come out with a game that fell so far below expectations that I wonder if there had been some personel changes during development. Surely the writers couldn't have been that bad all along...
Eldar,
This Post-Mortem gives you a really nice insde look on the development process of computer games, in casu Neverwinternights. It also mentions personnel changes.
 

Sabotai

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
304
Maybe this is easier since it doesn't require signing in. It kinda long though.

Gama Sutra Feature: Post Mortem on NWN. By Scott Grieg, Ray Muzyka, James Ohlen, Trent Oster, and Greg Zeschuk

"Neverwinter Nights (NWN) was conceived in 1997 as the ultimate pen-and-paper role-playing game simulation. BioWare's goal with the project was to try to capture the subtleties of a pen-and-paper role-playing session in a computer game, including a fully featured Dungeon Master with full control over the game world as it unfolds, and an extremely approachable toolset to allow nontechnical users to make basic content.

Early in BioWare's development of Baldur's Gate it became clear to us how the evolution of the role-playing game genre would unfold. We saw the explosion of fan-created content for first-person shooters and we rationalized that the role-playing genre was ready for a similar renaissance. It was going to take a lot of work to do it right, but even near the project's completion, we realized that at the start we had greatly underestimated the effort it would take to complete a project of this size.

Neverwinter Nights was also inspired by the early massively multiplayer games like Ultima Online. Our experience online was that we had the most fun when we were adventuring with a moderate-sized group of friends, with a Game Master creating an adventure for us in real time. This experience was one of the foundations of what we wanted to capture in Neverwinter Nights.

Neverwinter Nights was the largest and most ambitious project BioWare has yet undertaken, beyond the 250-hour Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn. Our goal was to create a game with significant impact, while also delivering on all of our goals. As a result, we had an extremely large team working on Neverwinter Nights.

At its peak, the team numbered more than 75 people - with 22 programmers working on aspects as diverse as the game client, independent servers, the Dungeon Master client, and the world creation tools (the BioWare Aurora Neverwinter Toolset). Not only did the final game feature a large number of programmed features, but we also had hundreds of monsters, thousands of custom scripts, and a substantial single- or multiplayer campaign (featuring 60 to 100 hours of gameplay). Coordination of such a large team presented us with a number of unique management challenges, and in retrospect we learned a number of lessons regarding managing huge projects, many of which are described in this article.


What Went Right
1. Constant communication. With the NWN team growing at the end to upwards of 75 people, communication of the goals of the project, and the day-to-day development decisions, became a critical necessity. We formed a tight communication network, with the leads in each area summarizing daily challenges, potential pitfalls, and areas of concern. Each significant code change required consultation with the various people responsible for the systems that would be touched - a fundamental change required a quick meeting between three to five people simply to make sure everyone who was affected would be aware of how the change would affect them. While this might superficially seem like an inefficient way to work, it did result in a number of benefits for the project and the team. First, the constant communication to achieve difficult goals brought the entire team together, and when difficult problems arose there were always a few knowledgeable people with a familiarity with the problem that could be consulted.

Furthermore, NWN was painstakingly documented, from technical design docs and art style guidelines to rules and level design documents. The team leads created and updated massive schedule documents detailing every aspect of the project. The tools group designed and created a project manager program. This tool facilitated faster and more organized communication between the departments. While documents would sometimes fall out of date, it was still a big step forward compared to our previous projects.

While documentation to this level is probably not required (and might even prove to be a hindrance to progress) on many games, on a role-playing project of the size of NWN, it was critical. With any large project, one of the major challenges is making sure the team works as a unit to achieve a common goal, rather than a number of parallel but unrelated goals. We found that the style and manner of communication on the Neverwinter Nights team was instrumental in both building the team spirit and making sure the game was successful.

2. Extensive tool effort. Compared to Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights allocated five times the manpower to making the game-creation tools suite. Although part of the increase was due to the fact that the Neverwinter Toolset was to be publicly released, we would have still invested fairly heavily into the tools even if they were only intended for internal use. The decision to go forward with a new tool, or a new feature for an existing tool, depends on whether the time required to make the tool will be made up in the time saved by using the tool.

In BioWare's past projects, we have generally found that if a task that could be automated by a tool was going to be performed more than once, then the tool saved time in the long run. Despite problems inherent in using a tool under development, having a large and robust toolset allowed for very rapid implementation of design and art content. We ramped up our tools department during NWN's development, and it has served the company well to have a group that can service the tools, database, and installer needs of the entire company.

3. Multiplayer integration from the outset. Although Baldur's Gate was intended to have multiplayer support from the beginning, we did not actually start programming the multiplayer systems until relatively late in that project. As a result, some of the multiplayer aspects in Baldur's Gate - such as forcing all players to see all dialogue - were less than optimal.

In Neverwinter Nights, the multiplayer systems were integrated directly into the original design. Even in single-player, the game acts like a multiplayer game with a single client attached. Although this deep integration increased the time to develop each system (compared to a single-player-only system), it did result in an overall reduction in the time required to integrate multiplayer and ensured that all the systems were optimized for multiplayer play.

One useful lesson from both the Baldur's Gate series and Neverwinter Nights was how much time QA testing of a multiplayer game takes compared with testing just the single-player game. We have found that three to five times as much testing is needed for multiplayer role-playing games compared with single-player. Thus, we require 30 to 50 testers (including both on-site and external testers) on our multiplayer projects for three- to six-month periods - not a small undertaking.

4. Experienced team members focused on quality. Having numerous BioWare veterans on the Neverwinter Nights team was crucial to holding the project together and ensuring the development efforts were successful. We hired a number of new people during the course of the game, practically all of whom had no prior game development experience, but we were very fortunate that a number of people that had worked on the Baldur's Gate series also worked key roles on NWN. Their RPG development experience served as the cement that held everything together on the project and enabled them to circumvent many of the pitfalls typically encountered when developing a story-based role-playing game. In addition, their ability to mentor new hires was essential in building a strong team, both for Neverwinter Nights and for BioWare.

Even though the majority of the team members were not experienced game developers, after they joined the team they had access to mentors who helped them learn their craft. BioWare's culture - based on a matrix structure with departments of programming, art, QA, and design - encourages learning and aggressive transfer of knowledge, which we believe is the best foundation for building a strong development team.

Many of the core team members worked on the project for a number of years - the entire duration of the project from the idea stage to completion was slightly more than five years. While we pushed aggressively through the entire development, there was never a sense the game would be shipped before it was ready. We set out to achieve all of our goals, and we never wavered from that plan, even during some of the complicated issues that arose in the project moving from Interplay to Infogrames. Fortunately, Infogrames was able to come onto the project late in its lifespan and mobilize the resources required to ensure the quality of the game by our intended launch date.

5. Sharing resources with other projects. BioWare relies heavily on our ability to draw upon manpower from the rest of the company to help out on a project in the final stages of production. All of our projects have done this in the past, and NWN was no exception. Designers, artists, and programmers came on from the old Infinity engine team as soon as Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal was completed. Many of these people were responsible for key aspects of the project, in the same way that many of the NWN team members had been responsible for systems in MDK2 and Baldur's Gate II. The development teams weren't the only people who helped out at the end; systems administrators, front-office staff, and the PR department also helped test the game.

Even with the help of a lot of people from BioWare, finishing a game the size of Neverwinter Nights was a huge undertaking - in addition to our 75-person team working on the game at BioWare, we had 10 on-site testers from Infogrames at our office, eight German and five Korean translators in-office in the last three months of development doing simultaneous translation of the game, and more than 35 external testers between Infogrames' various offices. Coordinating all of these external resources required the combined efforts of five producers at BioWare.

What Went Wrong

1. Resources added at non-optimal times. A large RPG such

as Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights requires a similarly large amount of art, design, and programming resources. One of the problems that we encountered was what to do while the new game engine technology was being developed. Due to our schedule, we needed to start working on art and design assets right from the beginning of the project. The problem was that it took the programming team three and a half years to complete the game systems. Thus the art and design teams had to make assets based on technical specifications derived from early prototypes. As the game progressed, many of these specifications changed, requiring some assets to be rebuilt, or else workarounds had to be adapted in the game code to allow for old and newer assets to work together.

In an ideal world, the length of the project would have been longer, with the programming done at the beginning with only a skeleton team of artists and designers to provide prototypes. Full production would have then gotten underway once the engine was complete. Unfortunately, this was not feasible due to schedule limitations and interproject scheduling pressures. We have found that when we are reusing or building on an existing engine framework, art and design can be completed with little risk of having to rework resources - problems like we encountered on NWN seem to occur mainly when we are creating a new engine from scratch (we encountered similar issues during the creation of Baldur's Gate, for example, but not during the various BG derivatives), and we are keeping this in mind as we schedule new projects in the future.

2. Incomplete prototypes. Even though we put a lot of effort into prototyping important game systems, on some occasions we completed what we thought were full-featured prototypes of major game systems only to find out later that they didn't address a number of important issues. In our haste to get into full production on Neverwinter Nights, we didn't properly analyze all of the questions that needed to be addressed by the prototypes. This resulted in spending time late in the development cycle sorting out problems with key systems of the game.

Development of our new game engine was an extremely long process; as a result, some of the initial prototyping lessons were forgotten or inadequately documented. In some cases, we didn't thoroughly review our original goals when implementing features later in the project.

As with any new-engine game, there was too little time available to prototype gameplay. Our prototypes focused instead on technology and the individual features of the game. While this kind of prototyping was important, it would have been very useful to have early feedback on how the game played, particularly with regard to the interface and story line.

Because NWN was a rule-based game, and rules implementation was at the end of the schedule, we were only able to test actual gameplay near the end of the development cycle. Due to our inability to prototype a number of design components, we ended up reworking them. As a result, we plan to prototype story lines in future games earlier in the development cycle. One of the ways we plan to do this is to reuse the BioWare Aurora Toolset as a rapid prototyping tool for story design, even for games with radically different interfaces and rules systems.

3. Delayed rule implementation (including tools implementation delay). The Dungeons & Dragons rules system in NWN was implemented according to a priority system established by the leads on the project. We failed to take into account how some minor addition to the rules system could have far-reaching effects throughout the game. This forced the designers through an aggressive series of revisions to the areas and characters in the official campaign story. In the end, we were able to tune the game appropriately, but we put the level designers, scripters, and writers through a very trying period.

The delay in rules implementation caused a ripple effect with the tool development. Furthermore, we reworked the tool interface late in the project to make it more approachable to nontechnical developers. This rework had a significant effect on the ability of our designers to finish off content, since they were using the exact same tools to fix bugs and finish up the game's development.

4. Late feature additions; innovation for its own sake. To ship a game that takes five years to develop takes a fair amount of intestinal fortitude. You really can't second-guess your decisions or you'll have no chance of ever completing the project, so the leads of the project agonized over some late feature additions to Neverwinter Nights. Given that the game was in development for such a long period, we were all concerned it might look dated by release. To combat this issue we laid out a plan to add a number of high-impact but relatively easy-to-implement features late in the development cycle to improve the game's visual quality. These additions resulted in constant concern among the artists who had to generate the new art required to support the late-added technologies. In the end, it all worked out because of large personal efforts by many team members.

From the start, there was a strong desire to make NWN a unique game distinct from the Baldur's Gate experience. While this did lead to the development of new systems that were better than those of Baldur's Gate, it also led to an excessive amount of time spent on design and prototyping of features that ultimately could not be implemented. We'd often sink a considerable amount of research into creating an innovative system, only to fall back on a similar system that worked better in the earlier Infinity engine.

Too often, we were determined to start at square one, instead of expanding on what had worked with our previous games. We learned that it is important to choose our battles. In the future, when designing a game set in a genre that we have experience with, we will look more closely at what has worked well previously and aim to innovate only in the areas of our past games that our fans and critics perceived as weak.

5. A lot of demos. A side effect of the attention Neverwinter Nights received in the years prior to its release was that we built a number of demos for trade shows and press visits, more than typically occur for most major releases. We probably announced the game too early in its development cycle, and it took a long time to complete the game with the promised feature set. Each time we built a demo there was an impact on the team in terms of both focus as well as schedule.

We felt the demos were successful overall and that the incremental PR received from these demos was helpful to the game's market success, but each of these demos consumed considerable team resources. In spite of this impact, the team recognized that demos are a necessary and vital part of the development process - however, they should be part of the schedule and planned accordingly from the start. In our future projects, we are booking more time for demos in our schedules, since they always seem to take up more time than originally anticipated.

Everwinter Nights

Though BioWare considers Neverwinter Nights a critically and commercially successful product by most generally accepted standards, it is still far from perfect in our eyes. We try hard to learn from our mistakes, and when we run across a hurdle or a challenge we try to avoid getting caught in the details of what happened and focus on the solution. We cast a critical eye on everything from process to user perception. This critical approach often allows us to spot trouble areas ahead of time and plan for solutions before a trouble area becomes a project blockage.

In the end, BioWare is a reflection of the people who work at the company; Neverwinter Nights was completed by people devoted to a project they believed in completely; as with many similarly successful products, without their hard work it never would have been possible. But we still have a lot to learn, and we can only try to improve each game in relation to the ones that we released before. Our future games must and will be better still than Neverwinter Nights.

Our hope is that the game will help open - and keep open - the door to user-created content for role-playing games. So far things seem to be going well in this regard. As of this writing, there are more than 1,000 user-created modules on the Internet, and this is just a starting point for the hundreds of thousands of players who have purchased the game and who are now using the BioWare Aurora Toolset to make Neverwinter modules. We're hopeful that our players will continue to make new content to grow the game's community, and BioWare's Live/Community team will continue to support them in this effort.
 

Eldar

Novice
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
68
Hey, thanks! That was an interesting read. I think their assessment was very well balanced, especially considering Oster and others were the ones writing it.

I have a friend here now and he just asked me whether or not I'm buying NWN2. I gave a resounding "NO!" However, I'll leave this one up to word of mouth and computer gaming world. Even if it gets a good review, I'll read between the lines to see where it falls in regards to my personal tastes.

Ughhh, just let them get away from at least a few of the more odious aspects of NWN. Horrible AI, hackneyed plot, terrible voice acting, Diabloesque gimmicks such as the town portal stone (note, I'm probably one of the few people here who actually likes Diablo. Just let Diablo be Diablo and let Dungeons and Dragons be itself) and the 3D engine all combined to kill the gaming experience for me.

I'm still ready to eat my words about NWN2 and I will gladly do so if the opportunity presents itself.
 

Sabotai

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
304
Eldar said:
Hey, thanks! That was an interesting read. I think their assessment was very well balanced, especially considering Oster and others were the ones writing it.

Mmmh, don't know about that. Of course they try to point out things that went wrong, but it's their own project they are writing about for the whole world to read. They would put as much positive spin on it as possible. Hell, I would.
 

Nagling

Educated
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
65
Heh! Short quote from an article at Gamasutra (Baldur's Gate II: The Anatomy of a Sequel):
Dr Ray Muzyka said:
Basic Design Rules:
1. The player must always feel as if it is HIS actions that are making him succeed. He should feel that through his smart decisions and actions that he has solved a puzzle or battle.
2. The player must feel as if he is having an effect on the environment. His actions are making a VERY visible difference with how things are running in the game world. His actions have consequences.
Now consider what the article, this quote is from, is about and draw your own conclusions…
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Constipated Craprunner said:
Microsoft has come close to repentance.

Both BioWare and MicroSoft have succeeded greatly in one area, stiffling innovation. With MS, it's the fact that the GUI was around back in the late 1970s, but PCs didn't get a decent one from MS until 1995 - fifteen years after the fact. By being popular, they've managed to cripple advancement.

BioWare's basically done the same thing. Instead of Fallout 2, Interplay would have been more wise to get Tim Cain, Jason Anderson, etc., to make Baldur's Gate, which would have continued the genre's advancement forward towards a richer experience. Instead of something that pushed forward, BG through the use of the popular D&D license, dragged the CRPG genre kicking and screaming back from the technical improvements of Fallout straight back to the days when CRPGs were just combat games. Then it further dumbed down the genre with passive combat where the user simply has to watch the combat and make sure everything is going okay rather than any real involvement.

This point ties in with Gareth's blind leading the blind point. Since BG became popular, primarily due to the use of the D&D license, most CRPGs these days mirror BG's shallow and inept gameplay.
 

EEVIAC

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Bioware make games like McDonalds make hamburgers. There's some meat, some bread, some cheese - infact, all five food groups are represented. But after you eat the hamburger, you're at a loss to say whether you've actually enjoyed eating the hamburger, or whether you just appreciate not being hungry anymore, even though you might be feeling a little sick.

Playing Bioware games is a lot like this for me.
 

Spazmo

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It's actually really funny. After FO1, Tim Cain and crew didn't want to do the same thing over again immediately after finishing FO1. So they would have been very happy making a D&D game and advancing the genre and such. Intead, they gave it to BioWare, who proceeded to make a derivative, linear game which set the RPG back a few years while Tim Cain, who was forced to make FO2, had to leave Interplay in disgust. I'd say Interplay's problems started right there, way back in 1998.
 

Eldar

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Dec 17, 2002
Messages
68
For all of the vitriol around here, Baldur's Gate wasn't a bad game. It had decent gameplay and managed to represent Dungeons and Dragons on the computer. If it didn't accurately recreate every aspect of a pen and paper game, well, that's an accusation that can be leveled against every computer game I have ever played.

ToB was "munchkin bait?" Sure. Substandard plot? Sure, but not any more than any number of CRPGs. Irritating NPCs like Cespenar? Yeah, you've got me on that one. It had fun gameplay, though, and that's what matters.

No, my personal beef is with NWN. Whatever failings the BG series had, NWN had and more besides. Multiplayer DnD? I would rather play with friends sitting around a table, eating chips, and enjoy a real game of role-playing. ...And my real beef is with the "revolution" that was supposed to be NWN. Sure, it's ridiculous for them to make such claims. It's a downright sin that I bought them.
 

Nomad

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Apr 17, 2003
Messages
99
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Never having played Fallout, FO2 or Arcanum, I can't really comment on how good the team is (or isn't) and what I think they could've done with the D&D license. Friends of mine who have played them say that Fallout and its sequel were excellent, but that Arcanum was a huge disappointment due to balancing issues, if I remember correctly.

I guess I'll have to play them all and make up my own mind. :)

Anyway, I can see your points regarding the hype surrounding BioWare's games, I just don't know if I would attribute it to malicious intent or not. I suspect that there's some pride (misplaced or not is irrelevant) in being able to make games that (based on sales figures) people seem to enjoy playing. Hopefully, BioWare will listen to the fans _and_ the press when making decisions about KotOR and their other projects.

Personally, while I think the NWN Official Campaign was not stellar, I feel the package as a whole delivers what was promised. That is, I'm a satisfied customer. Granted, I've been told that I'm easy to please, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. :)

Again, thanks for the comments!


N.
 

udarnik

Novice
Joined
Apr 10, 2003
Messages
60
Diablo came out a year before Baldur's Gate and did far better so I think it shares just as much of the blame for the current state of crpgs. That said, I also think BG 1 was the best of the Bioware games because of it's exploration aspect. I actually liked wandering around those beautiful hand painted maps and running into various things, like a band of hunters who think about making you their prey, or an ogre/siren couple, or a wounded deserter, etc. And considering that the only other fantasy RPGs that came out around that time were Daggerfall and M&M6 (and Ultima VIII a few years before), well, it wasn't like there were a lot of other options. BG 2 wasn't bad, either. It was packed full of stuff and was fairly free-form.

Like Eldar said, it was NWN that caused the disenchantment. It was so bad it made me angry - not only was it the most expensive game I've ever seen, but it was also the worst (that I remember playing, anyway), and the fact that they actually believe it is the best thing they've ever done demonstrates that they aren't going to get any better. They are beyond redemption, so it's better to just stop sending them money and start looking at other game development studios. SInce Origin and Sirtech folded, New World Computing imploded, and BIS is being gradually destroyed, well that leaves Bethesda and Troika. That alone should explain the giddiness that rpg fans have for Troika - they are probably the last bastion of isometric rpg goodness (unless BIS can manage to survive Interplay's bungling).
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
Actually, Diablo and Blizzard are forthright in what they offer - a pretty fun hack and slash game.

BioWare, on the other hand, can be summed up in just two words - pretentious cocksuckers.

3. Delayed rule implementation (including tools implementation delay). The Dungeons & Dragons rules system in NWN was implemented according to a priority system established by the leads on the project. We failed to take into account how some minor addition to the rules system could have far-reaching effects throughout the game. This forced the designers through an aggressive series of revisions to the areas and characters in the official campaign story. In the end, we were able to tune the game appropriately, but we put the level designers, scripters, and writers through a very trying period.

Survey Says: Shitty design at it's worst!
 

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