Witch Wake licensing problems

Sabotai · May 15, 2003

After WW2 was canned, Bioware now has some licensing problems with WW1. It seems Bio is in a legal struggle with WotC regarding the unauthorized WotC material in their WW-campaigns.

Visual and descriptive materials for Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide and other post release NWN content, such as the free Witch's Wake module, are currently working through an approvals process with the Dungeons and Dragons property owner, Wizards of the Coast and their corporate parent, Hasbro via our publisher Infogrames. Licensing approvals are a normal part of development and we hope to have the opportunity to share more information with the fan community in the near future. We truly appreciate the patience of our loyal fan community and sincerely apologize for the delay updating the community.

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=211843&forum=70

If I'm reading correctly they also have a licensing problem with Shadows of Undretide. Somewhere in the distance I hear someone shouting "Jeffersonnnn".

This license problem and also the license problems with Jefferson makes you wish for a Linux-like system on which companies can base their RPG's. The amount of money and effort involved in these legal battles must be enormous. It's a shame that all this money is wasted on legal crap instead of using it to improve a game.

Rosh · May 15, 2003

That's where game settings like Geneforge and Avernum, Fallout too, all shine because of the effort put into them. They tend to shine over the licensed old hat crap.

Vault Dweller · May 15, 2003

Rosh said:
game settings like Geneforge and Avernum, Fallout too, all shine because of the effort put into them.

Yes, they are way better then all this D&D crap that BioWare/Black Isle delivered over the last few years. Unlike licensed stuff that follows the logic " you all know this setting so we would not bother making it alive and real", an original setting has to do much more then that in order to show, explain, draw into its world, etc. That Geneforge's island is much more detailed and interesting then any of the BG or IWD locations.

Astromarine · May 15, 2003

You're right. I *know* you're right. I can feel it in my bones. It is logical.

..

Still, I'd love to see a Rokugan-based CRPG, though. Originality be damned, gimme my pixellized Bayushi Kachiko

Zetor · May 15, 2003

Heheh, Hasbro / WotC is probably trying to squeeze as much moola out of ye olde d&d franchise as they can... I didn't expect Bioware getting pwned though.

About originality, there's something to be said for worlds designed by professional fantasy writers [not hacks like Salvatore... IMHO of course

] being better than ones dreamt up by game designers. This is also why Betrayal at Krondor kicked ass and why I wouldn't mind a good game based directly off the Song of Ice and Fire series, myself.
Sure, it doesn't mean "game having a premade setting = OMG +++" [case in point, Return to Ho-hum Krondor], but the potential to create a good game based off an existing setting is there.

-- Z.

Saint_Proverbius · May 15, 2003

I think the best thing is the comment thread about that..

Some BioWare Fan said:
ay Bioware makes a new RPG system for themselves and introduces the so far unknown concept X.

Say hell freezes over, because I can honestly see that happening long before BioWare gets off their license grubbing asses and makes something for themselves.

Anyone who thinks BioWare would be less protective of something they make versus Wizards of the Coast is most likely mistaken.

Ausir · May 15, 2003

As i have posted here: http://www.rpgcodex.com/index.php#953
there's a game in the works - The Witcher based on the books of the best Polish fantasy author, and the plot is being made by the best Polish PnP RPG authors, so i have high hopes for this title.

Jed · May 15, 2003

Sabotai said:
This license problem and also the license problems with Jefferson makes you wish for a Linux-like system on which companies can base their RPG's.

Well, engine-wise, there is: d20. I know that doesn't cover the setting per se, but for fuck's sake, it's not like the Forgotten Realms is very original. If interplay was real smart, they would start checking out some of the d20 settings available, one of the better-looking ones being Freeport by Green Ronin. But then again, Interplay isn't really known for its smarts...

Ausir · May 15, 2003

Unfortunately, d20 license can be used freely, if your d20 products require the player's handbook. You can't make a free d20 computer game, because you don't need the D&D rulebook to play it.

Jed · May 15, 2003

Ausir said:
Unfortunately, d20 license can be used freely, if your d20 products require the player's handbook. You can't make a free d20 computer game, because you don't need the D&D rulebook to play it.

Hmmm. You're probably right, but if so, it seems strange that the entire PHB, MM, DM Guide are on the open gaming foundation's web-page...

Ausir · May 15, 2003

They are? where?

Jed · May 15, 2003

Ausir said:
They are? where?

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html

Also, I tried reading the open game license, and while I'm no lawyer, I didn't see anywhere that a d20 product has to require the core D&D books, though I can imagine a million ways it would be implicit, at least to WoTC.

Walks with the Snails · May 15, 2003

Wouldn't they have to open source the game itself if they used a d20 setting, though? I just really don't see that happening.

Ausir · May 15, 2003

Unfortunately, according to the more detailed d20 Usage Guide:
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/d20guide.rtf

<ul><i>
No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of any kind that:

Â· Describe a process for Creating a Character
Â· Describe a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character

You must include, visibly and in a readable size, on the cover or back cover (or title page of works without covers) of the Covered Product, one or more of the following text blocks:

"Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R) Player's Handbook, Third Edition, published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.”
</ul></i>

The game wouldn't have to be open-sourced. It just couldn't have character creation or advancement.

EDIT:
Furthermore:
<ul><i>
You may not use the d20 System License or the d20 System Logo in conjunction with any product that meets the definition of an "Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide.

Â· "Interactive Game": means a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users.
</ul></i>

Which means they can't use it even in BG:DA type of game.

Monte Carlo · May 22, 2003

Absolutely. A caveat covering electronic media is hard-wired onto the OGL.

Now, this is where the D20 thing is really, really clever.

Look at the slew of pen & paper re-releases coming out as D20; Elric, Call of Cthulu, Traveller....

Ergo, should you want to make a CRPG of Traveller using D20 then guess what?

You need to back-reference to WoTC to use the licence to make your own game.

:: maniacal laughter ::

Basically, Wizards and by association, Hasbro, is sitting on tons of unused fantasy gaming IP (for example, RuneQuest) that might be given a new lease of life on the PC as a gaming platform. And they get a share of all the action.

I've come to the conclusion that CRPG developers need to wean themselves off of brand recognition and make their own reality....but the suits won't let them do it. Result? Generic, bland, sub-console pap.

Oh well, anybody for a MUD?

Cheers
MC

Saint_Proverbius · May 22, 2003

Monte Carlo said:
Now, this is where the D20 thing is really, really clever.

Look at the slew of pen & paper re-releases coming out as D20; Elric, Call of Cthulu, Traveller....

Ergo, should you want to make a CRPG of Traveller using D20 then guess what?

You need to back-reference to WoTC to use the licence to make your own game.

You know, I was thinking the same thing. If you make a PnP RPG that takes off, does really, really well.. And someone approaches you to license your universe for a CRPG, then WotC gets a cut. It's pretty damned smart considering the money that can be made off of CRPGs these days with a strong license.

When you think about it, it's kind of like the crack dealer giving free samples of the crack to people, knowing he's going to make a strong return on them once they get hooked. Make something successful with d20 and you know a CRPG is inevitable.

It's in the fine print too, so I doubt too many people are aware of this. I know of a few indie shareware CRPG projects in the works using d20 as well, so it won't take long for this to creep up and zonk them. Of course, they're using someone else's IP, so they have to expect something like that when they don't bother to take the time to make their own IP.

Of course, one has to wonder if this is a step to locking similar systems to d20 for CRPG use as well. There are many, many systems over the years that were very similar to D&D's core system in terms of attributes and what those attributes did. WotC could claim that new ones are using the d20 license illegally, only making small changes to the rules.

Jed · May 22, 2003

Monte Carlo said:
I've come to the conclusion that CRPG developers need to wean themselves off of brand recognition and make their own reality....but the suits won't let them do it. Result? Generic, bland, sub-console pap.

Makes me think we should write our own ruleset collectively here on the forums. After all, if the arch-critics of the RPG Codex can't write a suitable rule-set for CRPGs, who can?

Ibbz · May 23, 2003

If I'm reading correctly they also have a licensing problem with Shadows of Undretide. Somewhere in the distance I hear someone shouting "Jeffersonnnn".

I'm pretty sure SOU has no licensing problems, especially seems they're forecasted to release it next month.

Sabotai · May 23, 2003

XJEDX said:
Makes me think we should write our own ruleset collectively here on the forums. After all, if the arch-critics of the RPG Codex can't write a suitable rule-set for CRPGs, who can?

Well, there are certainly a lot of opinionated, knowledgable people with lots of game ideas on this forum.

So, why don't we?

Has anyone given creating an alternative to the d20 system any thought? Or might have heard about a similar project being developed right now?

Monte Carlo · May 23, 2003

Sabotai said:
Well, there are certainly a lot of opinionated, knowledgable people with lots of game ideas on this forum.

So, why don't we?

Has anyone given creating an alternative to the d20 system any thought? Or might have heard about a similar project being developed right now?

It depends what you want to use it for. I think an interesting project would be to try to develop a generic RPG mechanic (rules, not technical) that was geared towards CRPGs and not a McGuyvering of an existing PnP ruleset. Sort of a pen & paper version of Freeware

My own favourite is the Chaosium D100 system used for RuneQuest, Stormbringer and Call of Cthulu. Elegant, intuitive and easy to learn. As it's based on percentages it would be easy to program. If I were to design my own I'd use that as inspiration, rather than D20.

This system, like any I would personally set out to write, is classless, level-less and devoid of alignment.

History of RQ and the tragic reason why it is now dead IP owned by Wizards:

http://www.maranci.net/rqpast.htm

What is RQ?

http://www.maranci.net/whatrq.htm

Kudos to Pete Maranci for keeping the game alive on the Net.

Cheers
MC

udarnik · May 23, 2003

Yes, Runequest is a beautiful game, mainly because of the setting, although the classless skill progression was nice, too. There was even a videogame made in the setting, "King of Dragon Pass", which I've never had the chance to play although it is supposed to be a "strategy/RPG" which could be a cool combination.

And if I were to build a computer RPG, I wouldn't use a rule system at all. I would make something similar to a first-person-shooter but add dialogue and exploration. In order to represent the character's progress (gaining levels, so to speak) I would augment the player's ability to control him. Guns would bob less, you could run faster, see in darker light, jump higher, see farther, receive warning messages of impending danger, be able to do different combat moves with melee weapons, etc. Of course, I love wargame/rpgs, too, but I'd like to see an immersive Doom/System Shock/Morrowind kind of game.

Jed · May 23, 2003

I think the whole d20 premise is wrong for CRPGs. I'm no programmer, mathematician, or game dev, but something seems intuitively wrong about basing a computer game rule-set on the number 20.

10 or 100 makes much more sense.

Fallout taught me that if I don't have at least an 86% chance to succeed at something, I probably shouldn't count on it.

Rosh · May 23, 2003

udarnik said:
And if I were to build a computer RPG, I wouldn't use a rule system at all. I would make something similar to a first-person-shooter but add dialogue and exploration. In order to represent the character's progress (gaining levels, so to speak) I would augment the player's ability to control him. Guns would bob less, you could run faster, see in darker light, jump higher, see farther, receive warning messages of impending danger, be able to do different combat moves with melee weapons, etc. Of course, I love wargame/rpgs, too, but I'd like to see an immersive Doom/System Shock/Morrowind kind of game.

What you describe is pretty much Deus Ex, but the skills are pretty useless since you can generally compensate for them in various ways and some are just plain useless.

udarnik · May 23, 2003

I was thinking more along the lines of S.T.A.L.K.E.R., but with more of an rpg element. I think it is important to be able to wander ANYWHERE, even if you get in over your head and get killed, and yet, I don't think killing should be the main focus of the game. I'd like to see more constructive forms of play done with a 3d engine. Being able to control AI teams, build fortifications, and subvert NPCs should go alongside GTA3 style destruction. I'd be nice if you could take over hang-gliders or small craft and just explore the world as well. I haven't played Deus Ex, but it sounds very linear and it doesn't sound like it has any NPC interaction so I'm imagining that it is more like Half-Life than an RPG. I equate rpgs with story, character progression, and character interaction (although I make allowances for old classics like M&M, Bards Tale, Wizardry, etc.) and any hypothetical crpg that I'd make would have at least those elements. As for rule systems, well, the main thing rule systems govern is combat, so the rules I would use would be entirely dependent on what type of combat the game focused on (melee and magic? turn-based? guns and ammo? phased tactical combat?) If combat isn't the focus of your game, then it hardly matters what sort of number crunching you use as long as it is intuitive.

udarnik · May 23, 2003

Oh, let me amend that. Roleplaying systems also govern character development. After all, the Whitewolf system is fairly crude and simple when it comes to combat (particularly compared to a game like Runequest) but it has nice and easy grooves to push your character along. If you choose to play a Ventrue, then you already know what Ventrues are like and what special powers they get. D&Ds is the same way. I suppose one reason fantasy rpgs are so popular is because they are so burdened with nice-and-easy cliches that make it easy to throw a character together. Want to be a tough fighter? Play a dwarf! Want to put the hurt on some bad guys? Kill some orcs! So besides combat, your rpg system is going to depend on how much hand-holding you want to do for your players.

Witch Wake licensing problems

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