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Should you be rewarded for doing a quest "right"?

Imbecile

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This might be a question with an obvious answer – but should the rewards from quests be determined by how well you negotiated the quest, or whether you took a good or evil approach to it?

I guess as an example you have the choice of whether or not to give Bloke A an artefact which will you have a hunch he will use to transform himself into Evil Demi-God A.
If he becomes the aforementioned Demi-God, you can kill him and get a reasonable amount of decent loot. However, if you trick him, by cunningly substituting an artefact shaped dildo – he tries to perform the ritual, and then kills himself out of sheer humiliation. You get a warm feeling of smugness, but not a lot else.

Should you be rewarded for choosing the dumb option? Equally should you get extra rewards for being evil (KOTOR I’m looking at you).

Just wondering
 

Vault Dweller

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Re: Should you be rewarded for doing a quest "right&quo

Imbecile said:
This might be a question with an obvious answer – but should the rewards from quests be determined by how well you negotiated the quest, or whether you took a good or evil approach to it?
Yes and No. The should be no "reward", but there should be consequences. If you are constistently evil, the game should recognize it and reward your anti-social behavior. KOTOR had a great missed opportunity on Korriban. An evil Revan should NOT had to do those silly admission quests. He should have wiped the floor with the top guys in charge (since he's doing that ANYWAY later), and taken over the Academy as Darth Revan.

So, consequences are the answer you are looking for.

Should you be rewarded for choosing the dumb option?
Here is a cookie? No. Consequences? Yes. A stupid person is easy to manipulate and to fool. In other words, it's an ideal servant, who may be trusted with missions smarter people won't be trusted with.
 

Section8

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No, but only because I don't think it should be considered in terms of "rewards."

First of all, a quest should be about the journey, and not the destination. It's fine to offer a reward for completion, as long as it's within context ("I'll pay you to do <x>,") but ideally, the actions the player has taken along the way should have their own consequences, some of which directly relate to character advancement.

The simplest example of this would be improving skills through use as you employ them in pursuit of quest resolution, but I think that's the bare minimum, and there should certainly be more developed "experiences" as one progresses through a quest.

An elegant way of achieving this is by portioning out experience for each quest step, a la Prelude to Darkness or Bloodlines. In this way, the abstraction becomes growth and development as a result of overcoming specific obstacles, rather than a bulk reward for satisfying an NPCs requirements.

It also permits variable development - at each step, the player's chosen resolution can be evaluated and they can grow proportionally to the effort they've put in. Also, it helps if each step is considered to be optional.

With that in mind, you end up with a model where the player isn't solely concerned with the end result, and I think that encourages a more "natural" flow of play, where the player explores events and situations on their individual merits.

For instance, the character needs a map. He knows who has it, but doesn't have the asking price, nor the skills to steal it. So he brains the poor sod instead. That's essentially an "evil" act, and the game should track it accordingly, and also reward him comparitively less than say, the guy who smooth talks him into giving it up.

But within the context of the quest, he may be doing it for altruistic reasons. Maybe he's going to donate the treasure to the local orphanage, and simply reasoned that assault and theft aren't significant when compared with the plight of the kids.

That certainly beats the shit out of "HAY ORFNSAGE!!!11111!! I GKOT U TRESHRE, BHUT IK KEEP T NKWY LOLZ, IO R TEH EVIJL!!11!" (c) Bioware Corp.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Re: Should you be rewarded for doing a quest "right&amp

Vault Dweller said:
KOTOR had a great missed opportunity on Korriban. An evil Revan should NOT had to do those silly admission quests. He should have wiped the floor with the top guys in charge (since he's doing that ANYWAY later), and taken over the Academy as Darth Revan.

Maybe not so much kill everyone, but shit.. Force Choke should have been a dialogue option for dark side aligned characters. Darth Vader was the original "Talk to the Hand" kind of guy when it came to influencing people to do what he wanted them to do. When those peons were mocking you outside the Sith Academy, a dark side type would have certainly made them pay if they had enough power to make them pay.

Of course, the problem with this is the idea of wether or not to script things like that or have the AI handle "submission" type events. Most people in the Star Wars movies tended to yield to Vader after a good force choking.

Then again, all CRPGs need some kind of, "Dude, I'm really friggin' evil. Don't test my power." mechanic. Evil doesn't mean mass murderer, so they all probably should have some sort of yield system to allow characters to force a submission on NPCs. Goodie good people won't kill unless they have to kill either, typically. So you can have a MERCY type yield versus a "I now own you." type.
 

obediah

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Re: Should you be rewarded for doing a quest "right&amp

OverrideB1 said:
Saint_Proverbius said:

I pretty much agree with everything said there and consider the lack of options to be "evil" one of the greatest failings of the majority of CRPGs

My gut feeling is that this a huge pitfall for rpg development. "Evil" is just too nebulous to pin down. If you go for comic book/tv evil many people will deride it as childish and fake, and you're either going to have to make "evil" a reload fest, or totally gimp the gameworld.

If you go for something more realistic, you run into all sorts of flavors of evil, with completely different behaviour. Not many of them are going to embark on epic quests or it will be very hard to add oppportunities in the game for the evilness to flourish. For example, I think the most heinous evil to be the "i didn't want to do this, but you've left me no choice. I really wish you hadn't done this, why won't you think of me." type stuff. It doesn't fit into the classic rpg protagonist role very well.

I'm all for attempts at this, I'm just wondering if it's possible to make an evil-friendly game without pissing off more of the target audience than you appease.
 

WouldBeCreator

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I'd say this thread reveals the weaknesses of the experience system generally from a logic standpoint (even if it has long, sturdy legs from a gameplay perspective, apparently). I mean, there's no reason why smooth talking a vendor or buying his map should get you anything, other than the map. Completing a challenging feat doesn't give you any new prowess -- some more confidence, perhaps -- but rather is an expression of the work that's gone up to that point. That the character becomes more powerful *after*, say, saving a village is silly, since it was his power that enabled him to save the city.

To the extent levels are tracking "confidence" or something like that, there's no reason why you should level up more by doing things a "good" way than a "bad" way; sometimes doing right takes confidence, sometimes doing ill does. (Everyone's experienced how sometimes telling the truth is hard, sometimes lying is hard; hard in different ways, sure, but both require a kind of confidence.)

Increasingly I'm thinking that very compressed levels is the way to go. Start the PC off as fairly powerful and let his super-powerfulness derive from items. I guess it depends what story you want to tell, of course -- if you're doing the stock fantasy "orphan Arthur" story, I guess you want to start the hero off pretty weak -- but I just can't help but think things would work better that way.
 

OverrideB1

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I agree that portraying 'teh evil' in a RPG probably isn't going to be the easiest thing in the world to do -- and the potential for upfuckery is pretty high.

However, I'd be more inclined to consider a game where there was an alternate 'evil' path through the main quest as something innovative and praise-worthy than a whole slew of pretty graphics and smoke and mirrors masquerading as gameplay. Despite the shallow minds who think 'evil' is going around killing all and sundery (what a paupacy of imagination they have), there are other ways to portay evil than a psychotic axe-wielding mass-murderer or a blood-soaked necromancer.

One of the most exquisite portrayals of 'pure evil' was given by Sir Anthony Hopkins in the Hannibal films. Not because he was a blood-thirsty mass-murdering cannibal (that's 'teh evil' painted with broad-strokes of the brush) but because he delighted in playing mind-games with those around him, and always to his advantage and never mind the damage that he did whilst playing. That is evil or, more correctly, Evil: A total and complete lack of regard for others except where they can advance your cause, then they are to be used and discarded. And the more psychological scars you can leave them with, the better.

But this form of refined and sophisticated evil would be exceedingly hard to portray in a game. Probably impossible. So we have to settle for broad-strokes of the brush -- the dark mage, the psychotic barbarian, the twisted scientist... Was I the only one who, when playing Morrowind, wondered why there was no option to seize the Heart and turn it to my advantage? To cast down Almalexia, Dagoth Ur, and poncy little Vivec and grind them into the dust before scourging Morrowind Province of every last trace of the Imperial presence and setting myself up as the absolute God-King for all eternity? How much cooler would that have been as an option to whacking the Heart until it went kablooie?
 

Azarkon

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WouldBeCreator said:
Increasingly I'm thinking that very compressed levels is the way to go. Start the PC off as fairly powerful and let his super-powerfulness derive from items. I guess it depends what story you want to tell, of course -- if you're doing the stock fantasy "orphan Arthur" story, I guess you want to start the hero off pretty weak -- but I just can't help but think things would work better that way.

But then you run into the problem of requiring a high-magic world in order for meaningful progression with respect to a character's power. I'll be honest here: the mechanic of character development in terms of power is a staple of the RPG genre. We can debate as to whether the *roleplaying* is hampered or enhanced by the absence of levels, but I don't think it's debateable that a lack of character power progression makes it very difficult for a game to be fun in the same way RPGs have been up to this point.

Take Oblivion, for example. Leveled monsters destroyed that game. When there's no gain in relative power, much of the gameplay drive is lost. Consider the suggestion that you start off powerful and become less so as the game goes on: why is this so much worse than starting weak and becoming more powerful? Both observations showcase a principle tenet of playing RPGs, which is the desire to *improve* a character.

That realism is lost in the process, I have no doubt. In the real world a human being does not get substantially more powerful than when they reach adulthood. If anything, people become less capable as they age - which is the direct opposite of what happens in RPGs, where old wizards and seasoned veterans far outclass their youthful counterparts. Games that simulate this - ie adventure games and shooters - do not have the same appeal as RPGs. Thus, it's precisely the *fantasy* of character progression that defines RPGs. I'l even go as far as to argue that this is the reason why Diablo II is an action RPG despite many people wanting to call it an adventure game. Yes, it has no roleplaying opportunities, but it shares a fundamental element with RPGs that adventure games and shooters lack: the ability to level up your characters.

That singular mechanic is more defining, ultimately, than almost anything else when speaking of RPGs in terms of gameplay.
 

WouldBeCreator

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I'll be honest here: the mechanic of character development in terms of power is a staple of the RPG genre.

That's certainly true. But I think you're wrong in the assumption that leveling up is a necessary component of power-gaming and also wrong in the assumption that it requires magic to be a major game aspect.

What gamers want is a sense that at time x+a, their character is meaningfully more powerful than at time x. One of the reason why slow-progression systems (like stats that slowly improve over time) have tended to be less popular than punctuated benchmark systems (like leveling up) is that slow progression never let you feel meaningfully more powerful because "a" was too short and therefore f(x) was not much less than f(x+a). I suspect that's also why skill-tree systems like Diablo's have done so well, replacing the idea that all a fighter gets at the end of the level is +1 THAC0 (or was it -1? I can never remember AD&D's rules).

The question is whether you can make players feels meaningfully more powerful without leveling. The answer is probably yes. You give players improved equipment -- it need not be magical; a good horse, a fine suit of platemail, a honed sword and so forth can all be rare -- to satisfy the "oomph" factor, you give them new skills tied into meaningful plot points, etc. I think you could do enough to make it work without having to rely on experience.

The main advantage that seems to yield is that you can get players away from doing repetitive, stupid stuff. It frankly boggles the mind how long it takes RPG designers to get away from bad gameplay mechanics. It took the Japanese, what, like 20 years to ditch random, totally non-strategic battles prompted by invisible enemies on the map (and the mechanic is still lingering on). We're still doing fed ex quests? Including fed ex quests transparently designed to make you walk along the slowest, most circuitous route with the most loading delays? Players are still encourage (required?) to run out and fight the enemy even when the enemy is avoidable because if you don't keep starting meaningless fights on your own, you won't be strong enough down the line? Player still have to act as garbagemen taking all the crap they find on corpses and in trashbins (barrels, boxes, crates, etc.) in order to make enough money to get by? It just doesn't make much sense from a narrative standpoint (I don't mean a "making players read text or watch cutscenes" standpoint; I mean the narrative contained in the gameplay itself) or from a funness standpoint.

I agree it would be important to maintain the feeling that there's an obstacle at the start of the game that you cannot overcome, but can overcome at midgame (and so on). That's an integral part of the roleplaying experience. I'm just not sure leveling is the right way to do it.

This is now a horribly organized post, but I'll throw in a last thought. Experience (gold and items, too) is an incentive as well as a reward. If you give the player enough experience for rearranging a five hundred word list into alphabetical order, he'll do it, even if you put substantial loading delays into each rearrangement. I suspect you could get him to do it for +1 WIS in an AD&D game or +1 INT in Fallout. But you're a bad game designer if you're incentivizing unfun or frustrating behavior. You use incentives in games as a way of getting the player to learn fun new things in the game. How often has experience been used that way in RPGs? I would say perhaps not at all. You give rewards to the player as a way to make him feel a sense of accomplishment for what he's done. That's how experience is most often used in RPGs. But the rewards are given out almost thoughtlessly; rewarding a player for quests is silly because quests should provide their own reward (through plot advancement, roleplaying opportunities, and the closure of the quest's substory, and, most importantly through some meaningful effect on the gameworld), and the rewards for battles / traps / etc. usually come for things that are totally meaningless (clicking on a locked chest, clicking three times on an ogre, etc.) and not suitable for rewarding. To some extent, games get around this by giving meaninglessly low experience rewards for the meaningless battles / disarmings and obscenely high experience for killing bosses or completing quests (see, e.g., PS:T). But that just proves my point that there's no reason to give experience for that lesser stuff at all.

As I say, it turns a lot on the story you want to tell. But I do think there are better ways to do this than what we've currently got.
 

Imbecile

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The general feeling seems to be that rewards are pretty irrelevant - its about the journey. The problem is that as Azarkon pointed out, rewards (wether that be experience or loot) are currently a fundamental part of RPG design, and thats unlikely to change any time soon.

Most people poting seem to believe that rewards shouldnt be based on:

The difficulty of the quest
Wether you completed the task well
Wether you took the easy route
Wether you were mercenary/evil
Your level

Effectively we are talking completely arbitrary rewards. But in order to prevent this being a particularly unsatisfying gameplay mechanic, there ought to be at least some way of guaging reward.

In an ideal world, with an infinite number of decent randomised quests, it would be nice if the physical reward was based upon the identity of the NPC giving you the quest (maybe +/-10% value). If they were rich you were likely to get a better reward. The ability to refuse quests would really weed out the altruistic players, and would give a far better feel of whether a player is mercenary or not.

As for experience I'm perfectly happy with it being dealt with in a TES style (albeit modified). So the harder your quest, the more experience you are likely to generate, and in the appropriate skills.
 

WouldBeCreator

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bryce777 said:
I should think that the point of 'evil' should simply be to gain power through whatever means necessary.

This doesn't really qualify as evil to me. The people I've met in life who seem evil, as opposed to merely extraordinarily selfish, are those who deliberately cause harm without any prospect of benefit to themselves (and indeed some prospect of harm to themselves). The coworker who lies to get a promotion is awful, but the coworker who lies to prevent you from getting a promotion is clearly worse, and they're both out there.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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bryce777 said:
I should think that the point of 'evil' should simply be to gain power through whatever means necessary.

If we're going with one dimensional evil, perhaps. But this largely fails to recognize motives or intentions behind the actions, and it is not always easily described. Sheer evil does not necessarily entail promotion or instant gratification of self, and the means may not reveal or reflect what the end goal is. Sure, a given set of actions or how they are performed may be considered evil but if the end goal or application of said power is to do something good or prevent something evil from happening, where does it stand? What if it's the other way around, ie, rejecting to do something because it is considered evil but then realizing the inaction caused an even greater evil?

It's not so easily categorized. [/Jedi conversation, etc.]
 

Zomg

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I'm kind of conflicted on this. I think the straightforward solution is simply to give "quests" (I recognize the quest concept is stultifying, but I can't think of another method yet) multiple archetyped solution paths. Have a cruel solution, a selfish solution, a fanatical solution, et cetera, along with the typical saintly solution. The more archetype paths, the better; The player can then interpolate the nature of his character by choosing which archetype intersects that nature in each quest, and let the good/evil judgement fall where it may.

My conflict comes from how contrived that could seem, and how to make it possible to be rewarded for simply refusing quests that cannot contribute to the definition of your character. For example, say you're playing a mercenary-sadist hybrid, a real asshole. A person who should be unable to reward you (say, a stoop laborer) asks you to do something for him. He says he has no way to reward you - he's relying on your mercy. Now, the nature of your character says, "Screw this loser," but the game structure says, "Do it - maybe he'll give you the rusty AK-47 of Achilles that can be upgraded to the Satan Blaster in chapter 7. Even if he doesn't you can use the experience/corpse money/whatever and see every piece of content in the game." If there were a GM he might give you a reward for staying in character, but I don't see a way for a game to do that acceptably and still give you room for the nuance of imagination in your character choices (ex: That mercenary-sadist might have a soft spot for children in need, or he might be changing). If you give every quest a motive for many conflicting archetypes, that's where the contrived feeling comes in.
 

WouldBeCreator

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Zomg -- I can't imagine a GM rewarding you just for staying in character there, but perhaps I haven't played enough P&P RPGs. My impression is that the problem with the scenario you present is that quests are finite in number and the player's capacity to accept and complete them is infinite. That is, there's no disincentive -- or almost always no disincentive -- for taking a quest. In real life (and in adventure fiction) there are all sorts of reasons one can't do everything he comes across (time being a major factor). The thing is, to create a good quest -- something more involved than a Madlib'ed fedex, cleansing, retrieval, or assassination quest -- takes a lot of work. Designers are disinclined to discourage (or prevent) players from doing all the quests in the game, and are simply too time-limited to make enough quests for the player to willingly skip some.

So you wind up with a situation where the game imposes no limit on the player for taking a quest, the player imposes no limits on himself, and so you take the quest because the alternative is killing wandering monsters for half an hour to get the same amount of experience.

In some respects, that suggests to me that experience and loot are part of the problem (not part of the solution), although the larger problem is the sheer difficulty of creating enough meaningful content for the player to willingly pass up some of it.

A part of me is inclined to having the player select an alignment at the start of the game (or, if there is some rationale, start at something like neutral) and then have him only be presented with options that are consistent with his alignment. For example, the option to help out a poor farmer would simply not be available to a character who had consistently played the game as selfish and cruel. This seems in some respects to track human nature. Although of course someone can always disengenuously do a good or evil deed, it does seem to me that people who are consistently selfish often are just oblivious to opportunities to be generous and people who are generous simply would not seriously consider being selfish.

You would always have a range of permitted behavior, of course, some of which would push you in the direction of goodness (or orderliness) and some of which would push you in the other direction. So a goody-two-shoes could slowly corrupt himself by doing little evils, then bigger evils, and a bad guy could redeem himself over time. But both would find themselves confined to some extent. I think that might be most compelling for a player who is trying to redeem his villain, only to find himself incapable of seeing ways to do good or finding others too hostile to accept his advances.
 

Sirbolt

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True evil, if such a thing exists, must (like true good) be free from any association with the self. If someone spreads malice simply for the sake of spreading malice, then, and only then, can he be considered to be "truly evil". Any ulterior motive such as immediate gratification nullifies all this.

But then again, isn't simply evil that which we do not understand? If someone sees all life as abominable and therefore seeks to extinguish it, is he then truly evil? If one believes to be working for what they percieve as a good cause, then how can they be evil?

Say that a NPC, (muchlike the Dustmen of Planescape) sees the living as "trapped souls", whose flesh is the prison that holds them, and the only liberation that he believes is to be found is to grant them death, is this act then, eventhough it is not born out of malice, to be considered evil?
 

Zomg

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@WBC - That could be interesting, particularly if it were done outside of the D&D alignment tradition. For example, you might pick the alignment "fanatic" at the beginning of the game, or move to it from the blank slate (I can imagine some cutscene where you enter a madrassa or similar, and get a little "Five years pass..." subtitle) and your interactions in the game then come through that filter. There could be multiple dimensions of alignment for a finer grain.

That kind of raises the question of, "Why not make a different game for each of those alignments, if the filter is omnipresent?" which goes to the cost/benefit problem of nonlinear games. I guess the reuse of content between nonconflicting archetype-alignmentss, and mobility between archetypes facilitating character development (like, a knight-errant devolving into a crass mercenary) would do it. Plus, putting it all in one game hands more authorship to the player.

I'd like to see it tried. It's a good idea.
 

WouldBeCreator

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@ Zomg -- Regarding your question of why filter (rather than creating separate games), there are a few reasons.

One, as you note, is the savings on content production. But the the largest, I think, is that it makes a big difference from a player-psychology standpoint. When a player enters an encounter knowing that there are different ways through it depending on the choices he's made, I think he winds up feeling like the encounter is richer and that he has more autonomy. He also can speculate about how the other builds would get through it, and such speculation improves his experience. (That seems to have been true from the days of QFG through Deus Ex, etc.)

Two more benefits: One, I think it improves game writing when you write an encounter as being suceptible to multiple perspectives and solutions. The prose itself likely suffers (sometimes significantly), but it improves from a gameplay perspective almost always. Second, it's just implausible that many games will be made from certain perspectives. Uniperspectival games tend to feature either grim badasses or paladins or occasionally devil-may-care bandits with hearts of gold. But you don't often see zealots or villains and so forth. Indeed, I think one of the reasons I liked Warhammer 40K so much was that I got to play as a zealot. :)
 

kingcomrade

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Sirbolt said:
ut then again, isn't simply evil that which we do not understand?
No.
If someone sees all life as abominable and therefore seeks to extinguish it, is he then truly evil?
Yes.
If one believes to be working for what they percieve as a good cause, then how can they be evil?
Because he's trying to destroy the world. Don't give me that postmodern bullcrap about points of view. If you're unwilling to admit that seeking to extinguish all life isn't evil, then I don't know what to say to you.
 

WouldBeCreator

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The doppler radar says 80% chance of topic derailment.

You do realize that Sirbolt is simply trying to wind up to another Hitler defense, right?
 

Sirbolt

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Then what is evil, Kingcomrade? Please, enlighten me.

If there is some kind of higher existence, which in a game at least is highly possible, i see no reason why some selfnamed "liberator of flesh" should be deemed evil. If the context within the game is that physical existence is indeed "evil", then death would mean liberation, wether the other characters knew it or not.

EDIT; Aw, someones a sore loser.
 

HotSnack

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WouldBeCreator said:
A part of me is inclined to having the player select an alignment at the start of the game (or, if there is some rationale, start at something like neutral) and then have him only be presented with options that are consistent with his alignment. For example, the option to help out a poor farmer would simply not be available to a character who had consistently played the game as selfish and cruel. This seems in some respects to track human nature. Although of course someone can always disengenuously do a good or evil deed, it does seem to me that people who are consistently selfish often are just oblivious to opportunities to be generous and people who are generous simply would not seriously consider being selfish.

You would always have a range of permitted behavior, of course, some of which would push you in the direction of goodness (or orderliness) and some of which would push you in the other direction. So a goody-two-shoes could slowly corrupt himself by doing little evils, then bigger evils, and a bad guy could redeem himself over time. But both would find themselves confined to some extent. I think that might be most compelling for a player who is trying to redeem his villain, only to find himself incapable of seeing ways to do good or finding others too hostile to accept his advances.
I was going to make a fairly chunky post, but I'm just a bit too tired to make it sound (reasonably) intelligible, so I'll just say this:

I've mused with a similar idea before, but I was never completely sold on this mechanic as it made assumptions of the pc as well as sometimes making inappropriate restrictions. Instead I think an better solution would be to implement a willpower/stress system. The more a character's choice conflicts with his "alignment", the more willpower points he uses up and/or stress he takes, similarly doing something that is "in-character" will recover some of that willpower/stress, with doing enough actions of a conflicting "alignment" slowly converting you to that alignment to the point where your character is inclined and even rewarded for doing so.
Oh, did I mention that if a character becomes overstressed, or if they attempt an action so wildly beyond their "alignment" without having enough willpower that they'll become slightly crazy? Well I guess I mentioned it now.
 

damaged_drone

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'evil' is a perception of the exploited towards their exploiter.
'good' is a perception of 'friends'/co-operators. family, friend, tribe, nation.

levels/gain level needs to be scrapped. that which improves in life are skills. skills improve in a variety of ways. practice, teachers, individual study. xp is fucking archaic and abstracted far far too crudely.i have been stealing stuff so i get xp and i improve my sword-fighting??? 'attributes' also improve. strength, co-ordination, intellect etc are all dynamic. improvement through use. equipment improves also but this is basic and handled well enough already.

hit points need to be scrapped. i dont have any hitpoints, that i know of. i have anatomy and my anatomy has status. arms, chest, legs, bruised, burnt and broken. etc. a long list. armor can have hitpoints if u want.

instead of basing games on quests, u need factions and 'things to do'. 'alignment' is handled by factionalism. aristocracy, clergy, peasantry, underground, the military establishment, merchants, kingdoms. disposition associated with each.

obvious 'good' altruism/cooperation paths need to be exploited. nobility is difficult. a bleeding heart attracts flies. exploitation is easier (and often more rewarding, especially short-term) and should be a constant temptation.

my thoughts. probably irrelevent and i apologise for fucking up the thread if i have. if i seem off topic its because i thought the thread was missing its point. it may not have been.
 

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