Review Avernum 3 hammered at Gamer's Pulse

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 11, 2003

Tags: Avernum 3

<a href="http://www.gamerspulse.com/">Gamer's Pulse</a> has written a <A href="http://www.gamerspulse.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=364">review</a> of <A href="http://www.avernum.com">Avernum 3</a>, giving it a 10/50. The brunt of the thing is basically complaints about the graphics and the old school interface. Other than those complaints, it really doesn't say too much about the game at all.
 
 
<blockquote>The second, more significant problem with the game is the interface. Perhaps the clunkiest interface I've encountered in years, it makes the game a real chore to play at times. Movement can be controlled by the mouse, but rather than clicking a destination and then moving there, a click will move your party one step in the direction of the pointer. A slew of buttons lines the bottom of the screen, and clicking on one invariably brings up a clunky menu. For example, to cast a spell, clicking on the "mage spells" icon brings up an array of mage spells to cast?you can't hotkey any of them. While movement is a bit better with the keyboard (use the numpad so that you can move diagonally as well), everything else is equally bad. The worst is looking around, talking to NPCs, or picking up dropped items. Pressing the hotkey for one of these actions will place letters over valid targets on the main screen. To interact with a given target, press the corresponding letter. So to talk to an NPC right in front of the party, you have to press "t" to talk, and then whichever letter is over that NPCs head to actually engage them in conversation. These letters don't seem to be assigned in any sort of logical way either, sometimes the NPC directly in front of you is "a," and sometimes he's "c" and some other bozo is "a." I don't want to have to think about which button to press to talk to an NPC.</blockquote>
 
 
Ummm.. It's not like it doesn't label all the NPCs with the letter that corresponds to them. Even then, you can click on the one you want, if I remember correctly.
 
 
Spotted this at <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPGDot</a>

Azael · Mar 11, 2003

Well, I can agree on the interface, it is pretty bad if you ask me, Geneforge has a lot better interface.

My biggest complaint with the game is that it's too combat heavy, that quests generally only have one solution, and that Jeff likes to use secret passages way too much. It's very easy to miss critical plot info, such as the rune in the Slime Pit.

The world map could probably have been handled differently too, I'd greatly prefer a point-and-click system there.

Rosh · Mar 11, 2003

I read the interview.

Too bad kids are so retarded lately, that anything past point and click is a problem. So much for pressing a key and clicking on whomever you want to talk to, hm? While I do like Geneforge's method of control, there isn't too much problem with Avernum's, but I'll check out Av3 just in case.

Okay, checking out the demo. Damn, sign that kid up to be beat with a lead pipe, we have ourselves a very retarded reviewer, or a definite Inbred Engine fanboi:

Number one, the game's presentation redefines "piss poor." I can say safely and without exaggeration that there were better looking games (and even better looking RPGs) available over ten years ago.

It's not good to use hyperbole in a review, especially if it makes you look quite laughable upon your numerous other mistakes. Well, there was Myst, but there was also a few glossy CRPGs. If you could really call the bug-filled (and seriously so) games of Ravenloft that. In addition, this has got to be one of the better tactical games akin to Gold and Silver Box, but with numerous notable improvements. And no, the Inbred Engine is not a more advanced form of Gold and Silver Box, either.

The sound front is as bad as the visual front, with no voice work

Anyone with a clue can tell you 99% of voice-acting is complete ass to begin with.

Movement can be controlled by the mouse, but rather than clicking a destination and then moving there, a click will move your party one step in the direction of the pointer.

And holding it will move your party around, or did you miss that?

While movement is a bit better with the keyboard (use the numpad so that you can move diagonally as well), everything else is equally bad.

How do you figure that, moron? You can move diagonally with the mouse as well. Now, when you graduate from Complete Retard to Mildly Inbred, you might notice that when you move the mouse around, the pointer changes to show you which direction you can move in. Damn, I can't believe a supposed "reviewer" can miss these things.

A slew of buttons lines the bottom of the screen, and clicking on one invariably brings up a clunky menu. For example, to cast a spell, clicking on the "mage spells" icon brings up an array of mage spells to cast?you can't hotkey any of them.

Or how about this, Cro-Magnum? You either press the letter for the menu and then click on the spell to cast, which is hardly on a clunky menu. It's far better than the Inbred Engine's, which you will hardly have enough keys to hotkey all the spells you need, and you have to wade through that stupid bar with no explanation what the symbols are, waiting for the tooltip to tell you what spell it is and absolutely NO description whatsoever.

. The worst is looking around, talking to NPCs, or picking up dropped items. Pressing the hotkey for one of these actions will place letters over valid targets on the main screen. To interact with a given target, press the corresponding letter. So to talk to an NPC right in front of the party, you have to press "t" to talk, and then whichever letter is over that NPCs head to actually engage them in conversation. These letters don't seem to be assigned in any sort of logical way either, sometimes the NPC directly in front of you is "a," and sometimes he's "c" and some other bozo is "a." I don't want to have to think about which button to press to talk to an NPC.

Most. Blatantly. Inbred. Reviewer. Evar.

Press hotkey or the button, and then (*gasp*) click on the NPC or object you want to search. LIKE IT SAYS IN THE HELP FILE AND CONTROLS ARE EXPLAINED! Or, how about the vastly better pick-up system than a lot of other games, where you just press G and have all the items around you displayed in a helpful little menu to move them around, even showing you which ones aren't yours to touch (although that does depart a bit from taking a chance when looking through someone's stuff).

Congratulations, a reviewer didn't bother to read the manual and therefore has a very laughable review. I hope they feel some shame, of course they wouldn't (probably like that one plagiarizing reviewer). I think this proves that no matter how well you document some things, there will be some retard who couldn't even figure the simple things out. Hey, I could figure out the interface without the help file, but unfortunately not all people are so lucky. Especially for the reviewer, "Bane of Intelligent Thought".

The graphics and sound are dismally bad, and the interface would have been bad even before PCs had mice. If you can get past both of these issues, you get to an RPG which is decent, but not up to the high standards of today.

The rest of the review is dismal, and obviously shows they didn't play the game worth a damn. If it were like Av2 (which it's supposed to be much better), then it already beats out a lot of the Inbred Engine games in a number of ways. Graphics should be functional for the story, upon which they are, and the sound isn't a concern to a CRPG either. As for the interface comment, the reviewer has already proven themselves an idiot, so that is invalidated. Someone let Vogel know a retard touched his game, and that it's time to pull out the lead pipe. It's time to go Scorched Earth on someone.

Reviewer Review:

Ability to Read: Not confirmed.
Read the Manual?: Failed.
Possess a Clue?: You've got to be kidding.
Affinity for flashy graphics: Definitely cattle.
Took a summary of the game from elsewhere and tacked on a clueless bash about the interface: The review in a nutshell.

Overall Reviewer Score: Bottom 10% of gene pool, and quickly falling.

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 11, 2003

Azael said:
Well, I can agree on the interface, it is pretty bad if you ask me, Geneforge has a lot better interface.

I prefer Geneforge's, but once I got used to Avernum's, I didn't mind.

My biggest complaint with the game is that it's too combat heavy, that quests generally only have one solution, and that Jeff likes to use secret passages way too much. It's very easy to miss critical plot info, such as the rune in the Slime Pit.

Avernum 3, all Avernum games, are dungeon crawlers for the most part. Hell, Avernum is really just an uber dungeon when you think about it.

That said, they're damned good designed dungeon crawlers.

Peacedog · Mar 15, 2003

It's not good to use hyperbole in a review, especially if it makes you look quite laughable upon your numerous other mistakes.

Did you by chance catch the Avernum 2 review that appeared in, I *think* it was PC Gamer? It was worse than this one. Exacerbated by the fact that something like 4 paragrahps were an continuous effort to simply make fun of the game. Not raise points about gameplay, design, etc, but just a long rambling "this game sux0rs!!!". Pretty stupid.

It was also funny because it was blasting the game for all sorts of stuff, saying things like "Oh, the great CRPG staple cave lore! I love having skills that do nothing." And "Hardiness and endurance. Wow, including 2 skills that do the exact same thing". Both were laughable for obvious reasons.

The problem when alot of sites get their hands on a game like Avernum 3 is they use ridiculous standards to judge it. It should be about gameplay and not technology. Mentioning that the graphics are subpar by today's standards is fine. Discussing the lack of music is fine. But keep it in perspective.

Of course, now we're getting into the fact that I think a great many game reviews are fairly inadequate. Not something you can fix overnight, heh.

Anyone with a clue can tell you 99% of voice-acting is complete ass to begin with.

And here-in lies a problem with many reviews. I don't think a smaller studio should get special review standards, but rather I think they should be viewed realistically. Even crappy voice acting from actors that haven't worked since Reagan was in the white house is probably going to far exceed the budget someone like Spiderweb can throw at a game. Upbrading Avernum 3 for lacking fancy graphics and voice acting is like picking on a Honda Accord for not being a Mercedes. The whole exorcise misses the point horribly.

And that isn't even mentioning the fact that voice acting ultimately has nothing to do with gameplay.

I thought the point about diagonal mouse movement was odd. Makes you wonder how long the guy actually played the game.

Most. Blatantly. Inbred. Reviewer. Evar.

Honestly, the one in PC Gamer (it might have been CGW but I doubt it) was worse.

I think this proves that no matter how well you document some things, there will be some retard who couldn't even figure the simple things out. Hey, I could figure out the interface without the help file, but unfortunately not all people are so lucky. Especially for the reviewer, "Bane of Intelligent Thought".

This is what leads me to believe the guy didn't play the game long. Ok, so not everybody is the type of gamer who can more easily pick things up. But we're talking about some pretty basic stuff. Didn't realize you could move diagonal with the mouse? *what*?

Someone who reviews games for a living should have been able to figure alot of this stuff out.

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 15, 2003

Peacedog said:
Did you by chance catch the Avernum 2 review that appeared in, I *think* it was PC Gamer? It was worse than this one. Exacerbated by the fact that something like 4 paragrahps were an continuous effort to simply make fun of the game. Not raise points about gameplay, design, etc, but just a long rambling "this game sux0rs!!!". Pretty stupid.

I remember an Avernum review in PC Gamer where it scored a 17%, and the review spend most of the time whining about the graphics as well. Frankly, when it comes to an RPG, I put more stock in the scripting engine than in the graphics engine. What cool things and events occur in the game, what all affects the dialogue, and so on. That's the stuff that matters most, in my book.

It was also funny because it was blasting the game for all sorts of stuff, saying things like "Oh, the great CRPG staple cave lore! I love having skills that do nothing." And "Hardiness and endurance. Wow, including 2 skills that do the exact same thing". Both were laughable for obvious reasons.

That's pretty sad, since Cave Lore does come in handy in identifying things and is also used in certain scripted events to give the player more information which could effect how the player handles an area, IIRC. It's optional, sure, but it's far from useless.

Uhhh.. Isn't "Hardiness" what affects how well you can wear armor? I can halfway see how he got confused on this one, because I didn't understand what it did exactly until I read the forum and someone explained it. Still, though, it's a good idea to check this shit out prior to writing about it.It's pretty friggin' important if you need to wear good armor.

The problem when alot of sites get their hands on a game like Avernum 3 is they use ridiculous standards to judge it. It should be about gameplay and not technology. Mentioning that the graphics are subpar by today's standards is fine. Discussing the lack of music is fine. But keep it in perspective.

I totally agree. That perspective should include that Jeff Vogel is one person who makes the game by himself. In terms of technology, Avernum does a hell of a lot very well. Give him access to a graphic designer, and his games would look fabulous.

And here-in lies a problem with many reviews. I don't think a smaller studio should get special review standards, but rather I think they should be viewed realistically. Even crappy voice acting from actors that haven't worked since Reagan was in the white house is probably going to far exceed the budget someone like Spiderweb can throw at a game. Upbrading Avernum 3 for lacking fancy graphics and voice acting is like picking on a Honda Accord for not being a Mercedes. The whole exorcise misses the point horribly.

Agreed, and I'm sure Vogel can't do all the voices himself. Furthermore, many people just buy the game over the web, and voice acting would push that package from 12MB to 200MB pretty quickly, which would limit him to the hardcare modem fans and high speed internet fans only. It'd be foolish on many levels for him to do this.

And that isn't even mentioning the fact that voice acting ultimately has nothing to do with gameplay.

Right, it's just fluff, basically.

This is what leads me to believe the guy didn't play the game long. Ok, so not everybody is the type of gamer who can more easily pick things up. But we're talking about some pretty basic stuff. Didn't realize you could move diagonal with the mouse? *what*?

The mouse movement in Avernum sucks, IMHO. However, it's not like you're forced to use the mouse. You can use the keyboard pretty well for just about everything, and that's my prefered method of playing.

Rosh · Mar 16, 2003

Peacedog said:
Someone who reviews games for a living should have been able to figure alot of this stuff out.

I agree. I also believe they should be both fired and expelled from the gene pool (i.e. employment at Wal-Mart).

Peacedog · Mar 16, 2003

I remember an Avernum review in PC Gamer where it scored a 17%, and the review spend most of the time whining about the graphics as well. Frankly, when it comes to an RPG, I put more stock in the scripting engine than in the graphics engine. What cool things and events occur in the game, what all affects the dialogue, and so on. That's the stuff that matters most, in my book.

Absolutely. Dialogue can be a pretty important, especially when you break out of the good/bad/misc answer options and allow the character's abilites & skills to affect the outcome of in game events via dialogue. Far, far more important than something like graphics. Trying to explain something like this to the type of person who'd give a game like Avernum a %17 is probably a waste of breathe however.

That's pretty sad, since Cave Lore does come in handy in identifying things and is also used in certain scripted events to give the player more information which could effect how the player handles an area, IIRC. It's optional, sure, but it's far from useless.

Yep. You definately can ingore it, but it does help in many instances (most of them minor). He usually mentions something to the effect of "your cave lore tells you. . ." but sometimes it is easy to miss it in the message ( I wish he'd highlight the skill names in situations like this, just as a nice clue to the player). I can understand a reviewer missing this at least. . .

Isn't "Hardiness" what affects how well you can wear armor? I can halfway see how he got confused on this one, because I didn't understand what it did exactly until I read the forum and someone explained it. Still, though, it's a good idea to check this shit out prior to writing about it.It's pretty friggin' important if you need to wear good armor.

That's defense. Now, I can understand a gamer looking down and seeing an endurace attribute, then defense & hardiness skills, and wondering "hmmm, these all look related, if not similar". However, you could click on the attribute/skill and get a description in the character screen.

And if the reviewer had done so, he'd have seen that Endurance affected many things, hitpoints among them. He'd have also seen that Hardiness was damage resistance, reducing the amount of damage you take from any attack by the skill number. Not even remotely the same thing. You could certainly argued that perhaps hardiness might be better named. But there isn't any excuse for reporting they do the same thing (unless you only play the game for, say, 30 minutes).

If memory serves, there was some vaguery in the defense description, so that is certainly a valid point, and would have been a valid thing to bring up in the review.

I totally agree. That perspective should include that Jeff Vogel is one person who makes the game by himself. In terms of technology, Avernum does a hell of a lot very well. Give him access to a graphic designer, and his games would look fabulous.

Yep. The thing that always gets me when people put the game down in an inane matter is that he's making money and supporting a family off of them. Indeed, Spiderweb has grown since it started. His choice to do "indie" games is a conscious one, and it has served him well. I won't criticize someone for missing the bells and whistles, and his games aren't for everyone. But reviews like this one you've linked to and the PC gamer one are just irresponsible.

Agreed, and I'm sure Vogel can't do all the voices himself. Furthermore, many people just buy the game over the web, and voice acting would push that package from 12MB to 200MB pretty quickly, which would limit him to the hardcare modem fans and high speed internet fans only. It'd be foolish on many levels for him to do this.

He's apparently got quite a few fans overseas, in areas where they are still paying by the minute. Larger file sizes would hurt him there as well. Also, I've always liked his theory on music: the gamer is much better at selecting music that fits the mood of a given point in the game than he is.

While there are occasionally games whose music I do appreciate (Starcontrol 2: best. music. evar.), I don't mind this approach one bit, because he's right. I did like him putting in some ambient sounds, I think that did help out atmosphere in his last few games.

Right, it's just fluff, basically.

Fun fluff, when done well (Torment, Fallout). Agonizing when done poorly (ever Final Fantasy with voice acting, for that matter the majority of games who use it as one poster pointed out). It does irk me when people act like voice acting is somehow intergral to the gameplay.

The mouse movement in Avernum sucks, IMHO. However, it's not like you're forced to use the mouse. You can use the keyboard pretty well for just about everything, and that's my prefered method of playing.

Yeah, and saying something like "you can only move diagonal with the keyboard" is just silly. I liked the mouse movement in Avernum fine, but then I can see why people don't care for it.

Zetor · Mar 16, 2003

Crap wannabe reviewers are a dime a dozen, just look at GameFAQs if you don't believe me.

And yeah, he missed the clue boat by several miles apparently.

... then again, he thinks Dungeon Siege is, like, the best RPG evar.

A minor note, but I found voice acting to be a quite integral part of gameplay in some of the later Sirtech titles [JA2, Wizardry 8] as well as Freedom Force. I think they enhance the immersion aspect immensely if used right -- and yes, most other games have abysmal voice acting. Music, OTOH, is something I turn off in EVERY game, since it does get repetitive after a short while. (yeah, SC2's music was cool, but no way in hell could I keep listening to the Orz tune for 30 minutes without going insane)

-- Z.

Peacedog · Mar 16, 2003

A minor note, but I found voice acting to be a quite integral part of gameplay in some of the later Sirtech titles [JA2, Wizardry 8] as well as Freedom Force.

I wouldn't call it integral. What was done in JA2 and Wizardry 8 could have been accomplished by other means. Signialing the discovery of items or spotting monsters, for example. The voice work did prove to be pretty unique in both examples, and do add to the gaming experience, but are not absolutely necessary (fun? absolutely).

I wouldn't mind seeing more big budget titles do some of what Wiz 8 did, but this is definately something that will remain the provice of the big boys. A luxury, albeit a pretty nifty one.

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 16, 2003

Peacedog said:
That's defense. Now, I can understand a gamer looking down and seeing an endurace attribute, then defense & hardiness skills, and wondering "hmmm, these all look related, if not similar". However, you could click on the attribute/skill and get a description in the character screen.

I thought Hardiness also made it so you could wear armor without AP penalties. Then again, it's been several months since I've played Avernum.

One thing I think is funny is that if you use the premade character classes, you can screw yourself when it comes to magic abilities. It's far greater to make a custom priest or mage. :D

Yep. The thing that always gets me when people put the game down in an inane matter is that he's making money and supporting a family off of them. Indeed, Spiderweb has grown since it started. His choice to do "indie" games is a conscious one, and it has served him well. I won't criticize someone for missing the bells and whistles, and his games aren't for everyone. But reviews like this one you've linked to and the PC gamer one are just irresponsible.

Well, if Jeff ever made a bad game, I wouldn't give it a good review. However, Jeff excels at what he does, which is crafting a brilliant CRPG, both dungeon crawlers like Avernum and straight CRPGs like Geneforge. Although, I wish Geneforge had more town locations like Krazg, Pentill, etc.

Fun fluff, when done well (Torment, Fallout). Agonizing when done poorly (ever Final Fantasy with voice acting, for that matter the majority of games who use it as one poster pointed out). It does irk me when people act like voice acting is somehow intergral to the gameplay.

Fun fluff that isn't so great with web distribution, though. Agreed though, no VA is better than poor VA.

Azael · Mar 16, 2003

Saint_Proverbius said:
I thought Hardiness also made it so you could wear armor without AP penalties. Then again, it's been several months since I've played Avernum.

One thing I think is funny is that if you use the premade character classes, you can screw yourself when it comes to magic abilities. It's far greater to make a custom priest or mage. :D

Yes, Hardiness lowers the encumberance from wearing heavy armor as well as giving you a chance to reduce damage.

Also true about the premade classes, they pretty much suck all around. A mage really needs the Natural Mage trait, and sure as hell don't need any points wasted in Potion Making, a skill that pretty much sucks considering the amount of potions you can find (and buy) in the game.

ecliptic · Mar 17, 2003

The only time when I felt VA really help to drive the story, character motivations and development, along with immersiveness, was Metal Gear: Solid. The voice acting was so excellent, which is made more impressive by the volume of VA that was present. Unfortunately it seemed to be a fluke, as they failed horribly with Metal Gear: Solid 2.

Section8 · Mar 17, 2003

The VO in Metal Gear Solid irritated me, but japanese women sucking helium and then speaking is about on a par with fingernails on a chalkboard for me, so it didn't get much of a chance.

--

I thought that the VO in Sirtech games was definitely an enhancement to the overall enjoyment of the game. It's a great way to project personality, and it made me actually care about my mercs in the JA series, favour some over others, dislike but tolerate others, and generally added more than a straight tactical game would have.

However, in a similar vein, one of the many things I hold against Baldur's Gate was it's VO. 95% of it was inane, childish, derivative and just downright annoying. While humour can add to a game, ie Fallout, it's best to steer clear of it since it's a widely known fact that game devs are a far cry from comedians. The best most seem able to muster is pure regurgitation of pop culture references or existing movie quips (ie Fallout 2, Duke 3D, Baldur's Gate)

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 17, 2003

Section8 said:
I thought that the VO in Sirtech games was definitely an enhancement to the overall enjoyment of the game. It's a great way to project personality, and it made me actually care about my mercs in the JA series, favour some over others, dislike but tolerate others, and generally added more than a straight tactical game would have.

The VO in Wizardry 8's demo annoyed me greatly.

However, in a similar vein, one of the many things I hold against Baldur's Gate was it's VO. 95% of it was inane, childish, derivative and just downright annoying. While humour can add to a game, ie Fallout, it's best to steer clear of it since it's a widely known fact that game devs are a far cry from comedians. The best most seem able to muster is pure regurgitation of pop culture references or existing movie quips (ie Fallout 2, Duke 3D, Baldur's Gate)

Harold especially. I really liked his lines and delivery of those lines. Killian's VO done by Richie Anderson was tops too.

Zetor · Mar 17, 2003

Saint_Proverbius said:
The VO in Wizardry 8's demo annoyed me greatly.

Wellll, the voices in the full version are much better IMO, especially the male voices. [since you're stuck with the 6 predef voicesets in the demo, while you can choose from 36 in the full game] The female voices are a bit... lackluster, sadly, with some notable exceptions like the psycho, the swedish milkmaid [I kid you not] and the german assassin. Same with JA2, I didn't find the female voices too believable (Raven sounded a bit dull, Ira was way too annoying, etc.), with a few exceptions.
That said, though, Sirtech always made sure that they 'covered all the bases' in their games, so to speak; and adding full VO of consistently high quality to a (semi-)non-linear game is pretty damn hard. I'd say they succeeded in using VO to enhance immersion -- it's definitely nothing like the half-assed voice acting in Baldur's Gate, guy-who-did-Irenicus'-voice aside.

just my 2 HUF

-- Z.

Review Avernum 3 hammered at Gamer's Pulse

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator

Azael

Magister

Rosh

Erudite

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator

Peacedog

Novice

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator

Rosh

Erudite

Peacedog

Novice

Zetor

Arcane

Peacedog

Novice

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator

Azael

Magister

ecliptic

Liturgist

Section8

Cipher

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator

Zetor

Arcane