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Interview Who you should blame for poor elements of Oblivion

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
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Tags: Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

<a href="http://rpgvault.ign.com/">RPG Vault</a> have a <a href="http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/701/701931p1.html">Q&A article</a> up where they "ask 15 team members at Bethsoft to tell us what they're most proud of within their contributions to the hit RPG". Here are a couple:
<br>
<blockquote>Guy Carver - Lead Programmer: I am most proud of the Havok physics. Brendan Anthony and I did the majority of the work on this system and I consider it one of the most fun parts of the game.
<br>
<br>
Ahn Hopgood - Programmer: I worked on all non-combat and non-pathfinding AI plus gameplay. I am most proud of when an NPC does something the designers do not expect because they decide to "think" for themselves. Drives designers crazy. :)</blockquote>
<br>
I agree. Those moments of sheer NPC stupididty sure are a laugh. Here's a particularly good comment though:
<br>
<blockquote>Dan Teitel - Programmer: I was responsible for programming the weather and climate systems in Oblivion, and for portions of the user interface. I think my greatest source of pride, in terms of my contribution to this game, were the times during the play-testing phase when I was able to find a really egregious bug that no one else had discovered yet. Knowing the user would never see what I just saw definitely made me feel like I'd earned that day's pay.
<br>
<br>
One of the strange aspects of being a programmer is that we often measure our success more by the absence of things that are broken than by the things that work. A poorly functioning system is often more obvious to the player than a properly functioning one. Our job is to make the environment operate in a way that feels so natural to the player that they forget they aren't in a real universe.</blockquote>
<br>
There you go, Oblivion is great because of all the shitty things that aren't broken, not because of the half-arsed implementation of everything they actually did manage to squeeze in. I think you missed a few broken things though Dan, like that interface you were working on.
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/theelderscrollsivoblivion/news.html?sid=6147764">In other Oblivion news</a>, the next pay-through-the-nose download called "The Orrery" is out. It's a whole 62 cents cheaper than horse armour AND it actually adds real content to the game!
<br>
<br>
Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blues News</A>
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Erik Deitrick
Programmer
I worked on interface and mini-games, and I'm very happy with how the lock picking turned out. It's fun right out of the box, and even after 200 hours of playing, even though I'm very good at it, I still have to pay attention or I start breaking picks. Plus a lock pick in German is a "dietrich".

I wonder why he didn't mention Speechcraft LOL

Bruce Nesmith
Designer
I was responsible for a lot of the game balance in Oblivion, both for monsters and for the economy. In virtually every game in every genre, game balance is considered to be one of the trickiest things to do well. I succeeded beyond my hopes and expectations, particularly for a game of the enormous scope and complexity of Oblivion.
:roll: Nuff said

Emil Pagliarulo
Designer
I was primarily responsible for the Dark Brotherhood and Arena, had a lot of input in determining Oblivion's stealth system, was the primary designer for the lock picking mini-game, and wrote most of the combat dialogue. I guess for me, my greatest personal achievement has to be the Dark Brotherhood quest line.
only this guy deserve a cookie IMO

The rest just seemed 'lost' to me Especially this one:

Mark Nelson
Designer
Personally, I'm most proud of the conversation system in Oblivion. I really wanted the world to seem like it is populated by living, breathing people - like an MMO without the annoying people. Any time I hear a good conversation in the streets or in a tavern, I feel like we've gotten a little closer to that vision.
 

Svartberg

Ballistic Interactive
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Nice, yet another oblivion related news - judging by the fact oblivion gets more news posts than all the other games in the codex, i gotta admit i think you guys really like this game, good for you.
 

Jiles

Educated
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Messages
68
RK47 said:
Emil Pagliarulo
Designer
I was primarily responsible for the Dark Brotherhood and Arena, had a lot of input in determining Oblivion's stealth system, was the primary designer for the lock picking mini-game, and wrote most of the combat dialogue. I guess for me, my greatest personal achievement has to be the Dark Brotherhood quest line.

Stealth was shit in Oblivion. The Dark Brotherhood quests are pretty good though.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Svartberg said:
judging by the fact oblivion gets more news posts than all the other games in the codex
Of "all the other games in the Codex", how many have announced something newsworthy recently that we haven't posted?

Svartberg said:
i gotta admit i think you guys really like this game, good for you.
I gotta admit I think you're an idiot. I guess that's good for you.

Mark Nelson said:
Any time I hear a good conversation in the streets or in a tavern, I feel like we've gotten a little closer to that vision.
That's true it's just that he doesn't hear many good conversations and when he says "a little closer" he means by about a nanometre.
 

Oarfish

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The interface system is pretty well done really, what with it being data driven and moddable, things could have been alot worse. The fact they didn't ship a different interface for the PC is inexcusable though.

A lot could have been added to the steath gameplay by having mobs actualy patrol, rather than just move around a few feet. Surely it cant have been too hard for the designers to include patrol routes in the dungeon maps. More than 1 level of alert status would have improved things no end too.

As for balance boy, he needs a good kicking. Pretty much everything about the world scaling is retarded, especialy the loot drops and shops. Why the bollocks does killing 300 rats or running on the spot for a week make different goods appear in the shops?
 

Abernathy

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DarkUnderlord said:
<a href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/theelderscrollsivoblivion/news.html?sid=6147764">In other Oblivion news</a>, the next pay-through-the-nose download called "The Orrery" is out. It's a whole 62 cents cheaper than horse armour AND it actually adds real content to the game!

Not according to this thread - or many others like it.

Seems even some of the hardcore guys are getting someewhat disillusioned, and the fanboyism is reaching new heights of immaturity - something I never thought possible...
 

Kraken

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Messages
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I just cannot comprehend why Bethesda just doesn't give out these mods for free to paying customers. Instead of selling for 2 bucks, give it to all those who paid 60 for it. So many more people would buy the PC version, so I doubt there would be much short-term loss. And it would create many more loyal customers, ensure that TES5 will sell even better. Just look at Blizzard and how successful they've become for supporting their games for free all these years.
 

Oarfish

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Messages
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I just cannot comprehend why Bethesda just doesn't give out these mods for free to paying customers.

Indeed, they coudl tie it into a registration system. Great way to combat piracy and can still use DRM to stop 3rd party distribution.
 

Section8

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Fucking hell. I wonder just how many fucking Yes Men Bethesda employs. Quite a lot, judging from those responses:

Guy Carver said:
I am most proud of the Havok physics. Brendan Anthony and I did the majority of the work on this system and I consider it one of the most fun parts of the game.

Except they forgot to actually integrate most of it into actual gameplay elements, which makes it little more than a distraction.

Ahn Hapgood said:
I worked on all non-combat and non-pathfinding AI plus gameplay. I am most proud of when an NPC does something the designers do not expect because they decide to "think" for themselves. Drives designers crazy. :)

Emergent behaviour good. Stupid behaviour bad.

Dan Teitel said:
One of the strange aspects of being a programmer is that we often measure our success more by the absence of things that are broken than by the things that work. A poorly functioning system is often more obvious to the player than a properly functioning one. Our job is to make the environment operate in a way that feels so natural to the player that they forget they aren't in a real universe.

This is actually one of the smartest things I've heard an Oblivion developer say. When one of your primary goals is to create an "immersive fantasy world", then steps must be taken to avoid shitting on the player's suspension of disbelief. Of course it also should be appended with a comment to the tune of "Of course, there is a balance to be struck between making sure everything works properly, and making sure that systems offer more than just the bare minimum functionality, because it's enitrely possible to have a game that works perfectly, but just isn't interesting or fun.

Erik Deitrick said:
I worked on interface and mini-games, and I'm very happy with how the lock picking turned out. It's fun right out of the box, and even after 200 hours of playing, even though I'm very good at it, I still have to pay attention or I start breaking picks. Plus a lock pick in German is a "dietrich".

#ifdef _XBOX
// Nice work Erik, you implemented a slick and workable interface to work with a limited control scheme.
#endif

#ifdef _WIN32
// Orders from above be damned. That's no excuse to create an interface that fails to utilise the strengths of a mouse driven interface and customisable keyboard interface. It's like the many faceted horrors of Sega PC ports in the late '90s were championed into Oblivion's PC version.
#endif

Happy with lockpicking? Don't be happy about how it turned out, learn your fucking lesson and do better next time.

Orin Tresnjak said:
I joined the company very late in the development of Oblivion, just after E3; I did odd jobs at first, and soon ended up taking over the distant level of detail system - that's the system that allows us to store and render a simplified version of the world out to incredible distances. So that's definitely what I'm most proud of - although it's a fairly simple mechanism, it really adds a sense of scale to the game and contributes to its distinctive look. There's just something beautiful about seeing Bruma clinging to the mountainside from miles away, or seeing the spire of the Imperial City from the hills near Chorrol.

Yes, congratulations on the draw distance. Now it's time to work on interpolation and concepts such as a LOD curve rather than a binary high/low, because that distinctive look is <------2005's detail------>|<-------1995's detail------->.

Bruce Nesmith said:
I was responsible for a lot of the game balance in Oblivion, both for monsters and for the economy. In virtually every game in every genre, game balance is considered to be one of the trickiest things to do well. I succeeded beyond my hopes and expectations, particularly for a game of the enormous scope and complexity of Oblivion.

When even the ESF picks up on how horrible the systems involved in "balancing" monsters and "economy" to the player are, be afraid. Let's hope he sets his hopes and expectations higher for the next game.

Emil Pagliarulo said:
I was primarily responsible for the Dark Brotherhood and Arena, had a lot of input in determining Oblivion's stealth system, was the primary designer for the lock picking mini-game, and wrote most of the combat dialogue. I guess for me, my greatest personal achievement has to be the Dark Brotherhood quest line.

Well, I'd say the Dark Brotherhood quest line seems to be the most highly regarded aspect of Oblivion, so he's on to a winner there. But lockpicking? The minigame where character skill has seemingly zero bearing on success, and broken picks only come through carelessness? The one that freezes time while you toy with the interface taking away any form of external pressure or tension? It's an utter failure within the context of an RPG, and it's not really "fun" either.

Karl Kuhlmann said:
My primary responsibility was the main storyline. Most of the things that I'm proud of are not due to my own personal efforts, but of the efforts of many people on the team coming together to make something actually work. The fact that we could actually pull off the Battle of Bruma, with close to 30 NPCs and creatures slugging it out in a completely unscripted real-time battle... I'm still amazed at that. When I originally put it together, I kept waiting for someone to tell me, "Kurt, sorry, but you're going to have to scale it back. Are you crazy? We can't put that many actors on the screen at once." That never happened, and we ended up with the Battle of Bruma in all its crazy glory.

I can't help but think that maybe it should have been scaled back. I only bothered to get help from two other towns and that battle slowed my PC from it's usual 25-30 FPS for outdoors to about 2-5 FPS. And from the occasional stuttery glimpses I got of the happenings were basically of the AI doing the same stupid shit it does in most combat encounters, but with 20 people doing it all at once. It's also hardly an impressive accomplishment given that even over a dozen years ago Doom and it's clones were pushing around "completely unscripted real-time battles", and "30 NPCs and creatures slugging it out in a completely unscripted real-time battle" is basically a description of every fucking RTS since Dune II.

Mark Nelson said:
Personally, I'm most proud of the conversation system in Oblivion. I really wanted the world to seem like it is populated by living, breathing people - like an MMO without the annoying people. Any time I hear a good conversation in the streets or in a tavern, I feel like we've gotten a little closer to that vision.

From my limited experience, most MMO's do a better job of simulating "living, breathing" NPCs, and even a verisimilitudinous world in general. Ironically, the only MMO players Oblivion successfully emulates are the "annoying people", without the saving grace of /ignore.

Erik J. Caponi said:
I looked through each of our cities and sought out ways to make the residents seem alive and bustling. I tried to reinforce the character of each NPC with actions that they would spend their days doing. The few lines of dialogue that even the background NPCs had still contained unique character and I did my best to work with that. A few of my favorites are Astia Inventius in Anvil who spends her days on the docks painting, the Arena addict in the Imperial City who always manages to not be watching a fight when his wife comes looking for him, and the hunter in Chorrol who spends his days practicing because, well, he's just not very good.

Wow, RAI schedules sound like scripting machinima from The Movies. Entirely uninteresting and dull for all but the creator. I've noticed far more instances of utterly baffling behaviour than any that uniquely characterises an NPC. Mind you I'm not particularly impressed by the one dimensional nature of a painter, who fucking spends her time painting! Who'd have thought!?!

Joel Burgess said:
My title means that I had a hand in many of the 200-plus dungeons scattered across Cyrodiil. Most of the ones I worked on are random romps without quests attached. This gave me a lot of freedom to create interest through atmosphere and gameplay. I'm proud of several of these, but I won't mention them specifically here; half the fun is stumbling across these in the wilderness.

Atmosphere? Maybe. Occasionally those cookie cut prefab blocks were altered enough to be visually interesting, but gameplay? There are basically three dungeons. Marauder/Bandit, Necromancer/Conjurer, and Monster/Daedra/Undead. Even quest dungeons with a great deal of attention paid to creating a fairly unique architecture (such as Vaermina's quest) don't really play any differently to every other fucking dungeon.

Michael Ryan said:
I designed the dungeons for the main quest and the Mage's Guild, along with several dozen random dungeons scattered throughout the landscape. As proud as I am of my dungeon work, however, I think I'm most proud of the collaborative work I did with some of the designers to get the Highwaymen and especially the Orc Adventurers into the game. The ghost pirate cave also. I'm definitely pleased with my ghost pirate cave.

Orc Adventurers? The corpses that are basically just containers? And the highwaymen that run up to you and ask for 100 septims regardless of whether you're a ten foot tall daedric equipped veteran of a dozen trips to the Planes or just some lowly prison escapee? I'll reserve judgement on the ghost pirates, but I don't expect much if he's proud of that other shit.

Jonah Lobe said:
It was immediately apparent that, although Bethesda Softworks has grown considerably in the last few years, it's still very much a cohesive team where imagination and creativity are encouraged (although technical considerations can, from time to time, temper <s>overly</s> even mildly ambitious ideas).

Fixed.

Matt Ouzounian said:
As for what stands out most in my mind, it would have to be the development team here at Bethesda. I've yet to meet everyone properly, but even in the depths of crunch time, the team was friendly - or at the very least cordial - and receptive.

Well, that they may be, but fuck me, they need to stop believing the hype, and get some fucking perspective. Self-criticism is a very important thing. For instance, taking each comment and saying something bitter quite clearly shows me up as the cunt that I am. But since I recognise that fault, I can work on improving. The fact that basically every single thing that each of the developers is proud of is deeply flawed or at best just plain average is worrying. But then again, if you're onto something that sells as well as Oblivion has and will, then who needs to do something well?
 

Abernathy

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Kraken said:
I just cannot comprehend why Bethesda just doesn't give out these mods for free to paying customers. Instead of selling for 2 bucks, give it to all those who paid 60 for it. So many more people would buy the PC version, so I doubt there would be much short-term loss. And it would create many more loyal customers, ensure that TES5 will sell even better. Just look at Blizzard and how successful they've become for supporting their games for free all these years.

I think Bethesda have forgotten both the meaning and the value of 'GoodWill'. Not only have they totally alienated their original ES fanbase, but now it seems they're hell-bent on doing the same to their new one!!

Christ on a bike, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it before, it's fucking chaos on their forums. It's common to have lots of complaints, yes, but the ES forums set new standards!!

Teenies and fanboys aside, it's still fucking chaos.

Seems Bethesda are reaping what they sowed, if not financially, then at least morally.
 

GhanBuriGhan

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Well done Section8, bitter, but mostly fair. But admit it, you are just as proud of being an angry cunt as they are being Oblivion developers, so you have nothing on them ;)

One comment: the lockpicking game. I know it's apparently a piece of cake for most of you, but embarassing as it is to admit it: I totally suck at it. I know all the tricks, watch the speed, listen to the sound, ba ba ba... But I break half my lockpicks on even simple locks. And I don't usually suck at reflexes, either. So for ME it works as advertised - thats not supposed to be a wholesale excuse for the design, if a lot of people find it too easy it should be revised - its just a personal comment.
 

Hazelnut

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GhanBuriGhan said:
One comment: the lockpicking game. I know it's apparently a piece of cake for most of you, but embarassing as it is to admit it: I totally suck at it. I know all the tricks, watch the speed, listen to the sound, ba ba ba... But I break half my lockpicks on even simple locks. And I don't usually suck at reflexes, either. So for ME it works as advertised - thats not supposed to be a wholesale excuse for the design, if a lot of people find it too easy it should be revised - its just a personal comment.

It's not just you - I am crap at it too, although I've put this down to not giving a shit and finding it totally uninteresting once I'd opened the first lock.
 

suibhne

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GhanBuriGhan said:
One comment: the lockpicking game. I know it's apparently a piece of cake for most of you, but embarassing as it is to admit it: I totally suck at it. I know all the tricks, watch the speed, listen to the sound, ba ba ba... But I break half my lockpicks on even simple locks. And I don't usually suck at reflexes, either. So for ME it works as advertised - thats not supposed to be a wholesale excuse for the design, if a lot of people find it too easy it should be revised - its just a personal comment.

Sounds to me like it doesn't work as advertised, actually. Character skill should actually matter in an RPG, so your example illustrates the silliness of the minigame just as much as the converse situation of someone who can pick Very Hard locks with a skill of 5.

In other words, the minigame is much more dependent on player skill than on character skill. A skilled player can blow through 5-tumbler locks with a minimal Security rank, something that should really only be possible for highly-ranked characters, whereas a less skilled player (someone for whom the minigame just doesn't "click", so to speak) will keep breaking lockpicks even when their Security rank reaches "Master". That's just plain dumb.
 

GhanBuriGhan

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suibhne said:
GhanBuriGhan said:
One comment: the lockpicking game. I know it's apparently a piece of cake for most of you, but embarassing as it is to admit it: I totally suck at it. I know all the tricks, watch the speed, listen to the sound, ba ba ba... But I break half my lockpicks on even simple locks. And I don't usually suck at reflexes, either. So for ME it works as advertised - thats not supposed to be a wholesale excuse for the design, if a lot of people find it too easy it should be revised - its just a personal comment.

Sounds to me like it doesn't work as advertised, actually. Character skill should actually matter in an RPG, so your example illustrates the silliness of the minigame just as much as the converse situation of someone who can pick Very Hard locks with a skill of 5.

In other words, the minigame is much more dependent on player skill than on character skill. A skilled player can blow through 5-tumbler locks with a minimal Security rank, something that should really only be possible for highly-ranked characters, whereas a less skilled player (someone for whom the minigame just doesn't "click", so to speak) will keep breaking lockpicks even when their Security rank reaches "Master". That's just plain dumb.

I wrote it works as advertised for ME. Big difference. I believe my character is journyman in security. I currently have no chance of opening a lock above average, and average only at considerable cost in lockpicks. I can frequently open simple locks at a moderate cost of lockpicks. So it overall fits my character.
Plus, as we have discussed earlier, I am (maybe unlike the majority here) NOT against putting more emphasis on player skill for stuff like this - as long as character skill still has a significant, palpable impact - which in MY case the lockpicking game has. But we've been there, so let's not chew this over again.
 

Greatatlantic

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The whole security trait is pretty much becomes worthless in the game. The mini-game allows people with good reflexes to open locks largely regaurdless of what their skill is. Then, mages can just cast spells for most part to get the job done. At least there there are actual skill limitations on what you can open. Then there is the all powerful skeleton key which can be had by doing a simple quest independent of any guild involvement. This baby is an unbreakable lockpick that adds +40 to your security skill, basically allowing players to hit Auto Attempt until it opens. Finally, outside the thieves guild I am yet to find a reliable source of lockpicks. Hence, thieving characters can use the quantity of lock picks to overcome a skill deficit, while non-thieving characters are forced to raise their security skill to be able to open locks at a safe level so as to not loose all their picks. Sort of counter intuitive from a roleplaying perspective.
 

Rat Keeng

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Oct 22, 2002
Messages
869
In virtually every game in every genre, game balance is considered to be one of the trickiest things to do well. I succeeded beyond my hopes and expectations, particularly for a game of the enormous scope and complexity of Oblivion.

This one blows me away completely. Not so much that he thinks he succeeded, but the fact that he succeeded beyond his hopes and expectations. How horribly low were his expectations to begin with?

And it's appearantly not a problem for Bethesda that they alienate their fanbases, because their policy of "always starting over" means they can just herd in new pre-teens with every new release. Today's children are tomorrow's whining demanding terrorizing chocolate-milking videogame-recieving unsuspecting fanbase.
 

The Internets

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GhanBuriGhan said:
One comment: the lockpicking game. I know it's apparently a piece of cake for most of you, but embarassing as it is to admit it: I totally suck at it. I know all the tricks, watch the speed, listen to the sound, ba ba ba... But I break half my lockpicks on even simple locks. And I don't usually suck at reflexes, either. So for ME it works as advertised - thats not supposed to be a wholesale excuse for the design, if a lot of people find it too easy it should be revised - its just a personal comment.

Every pin has one 'fast' rise/fall cycle. No matter what the lock complexity, the next tap after the fast one will be the slow one--at least slow enough to pin it. So just wait for the fast one and pin on the next cycle.


Anyway...
Section8, well said. I too have suspected for some time the reason for Bethesda's utter lack of design sensibility can be attributed to a rabid form of Hivemind. No one seems to criticize their own work, and worse yet, none of the games producers seem too either.

If you watch the Bonus DVD you'll see a scene with Todd sitting in a conference room watching an early version of what will become the Book Store E3 demo sequence. Amazingly, everything he's seeing is new to him, suggesting the game's main producer hasn't got a fucking clue what his team's been up too. Who's in charge anyway?

Everyone in the conference room is jerking off to the fact they've made something work without questioning how well it works.
It's a producers job to kick the designers asses once in a while and shake things up. People like Todd need to say, yeah, that's cool, but how practical is it? How does it add to the game? And why the fuck is your 'system' generating NPC's who talk of nothing but Mud Crabs all day long?

Obviously none of this happened, and when you combine that with 1.7 net units, you'll get programmers who think they actually made something great. This does not speak well for the future.
 

The Internets

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LlamaGod said:
does anything speak well for the future anymore?

I went to a strip club with a couple buddies last night. The dancers were ok, so the next few weekends look swell.
 

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