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Whitemithrandir's OBLIVION REVIEW LOLZ 77/100

whitemithrandir

Erudite
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,115
77/100 is a B+ after curving.

I would have posted this over at the official forums but their database is telling me I can't, because of some obscure SQL error.


Rosencrantz:

Here's a little background credential about me and my taste in games. I'm 35+ hours into the game, and am what you'd call a pretty old school RPG fan. My favorite game of all time is Planescape: Torment, followed shortly by the Fallouts, then some infinity engine masterpieces like the Baldur's Gates, Icewind Dales, and whatnot, trailing along are hybrids like Deus Ex, System Shocks, and most recently, KOTOR II. I wasn't a big fan of Morrowind. The world was just too deadpan silent for me. There wasn't good interaction between choice and consequence.

This review is going to flow as follows:

I'm going to divide the game up into different catagories. Each catagory will be weighted by a certain number of points, out of 100. I will then make a point, and if it's a positive point, I'll add points based on how positive and how important it is. If it's a negative point, I'll subtract points in the same manner. At the end of the reivew, I'll add up the points and give a final score out of 100. This is the PC version I'm reviewing.

Ready? Let's begin.

GRAPHICS (20/100)

I'll be brutally honest here. I've never been a big fan of graphics. Graphics just aren't important to me in a game, and takes a backseat to gameplay and mechanics. With that said, Oblivion's graphics are absolutely stunning. I really don't know much about antialiasing, ansiotropic filtering, or any of the other stuff that a graphics connoisseur such as yourself may readily tell me. All I know is Oblivion has the best graphics in any game I've seen up to date. The forests look pristine, the valleys majestic, the snow capped peaks serene, and the imperial cities grand. Forgive me for using generic adjectives here, but the point I'm trying to get across is that everything simply looks beautiful and awe-inspiring. (+10)

The loading times are short and hardly noticeable, and I've noticed a bit of caching when it comes to loading previous areas. (+10)

If there's any nitpicking to be done about the graphics, it's that, like Morrowind, the faces look ugly. In fact, I don't understand why, even with such a powerful tool like face gen, Bethesda just can't seem to create good looking faces. It's more of a personal taste than anything else, though. I'm sure there are those of you that find these faces absolutely immaculate. (-2)

Final Score: 18/20

GAMEPLAY (40/100)

This is clearly the core of any game, and I will talk about mechanical stuff such as combat and interface.

High fantasy, the theme Oblivion plays out, is defined by sword, magic, and swashbuckling, or in the case of gameplay, the holy trinity of the Warrior, the Mage, and the Thief. Of course, the first instinct the player has when he picks up his first sword, learns his first spell, or nocks his first arrow, is to find somebody to kill. Oblivion doesn't disappoint in this regard.

There are plenty of enemies to kill, and plenty of opportunity to use your combat abilities. There is a good amount of variety in the types of opponents you'll come across, from goblins to slaughterfish to warriors to wizards. (+5)

The weapons all feel solid, and leaves very little doubt that they are, indeed, made out of weighty solid metal that will cause a good bit of pain, thanks to the excellent sound effects and combat animations (at least in first person mode). Everytime you block an incoming claymore swing, it "dings" off your shield or your blade, and you can feel your body recoil. (+5)

Melee combat is very twitchy, and quite strategic at higher levels. You'll have to think about balancing blocking with using different types of attacks, when the opportunity presents itself. For example, after blocking an enemy blow, you can twitch out a "disarm" combo on your opponent to take advantage of his momentary daze. (+5)

With that said, combat feels too fast. It seems that I can swing that claymore just a little too fast for a mage with 40 strength without much fatigue. The pace is so fast, in fact, that you will often find yourself without the proper reflex to time and deliver strategic attacks. Instead, you'll be in a frenzy of random block-swings that leaves very little in terms of strategy. However, I will not deny those of you readers with faster reflexes may have a different experience. (-3)

Another negative aspect of melee combat is every weapon seem to feel the same. There's no difference between swinging an axe, a mace, or a longsword. The "perks" you get from leveling up your blade skill and your blunt skill are all analogous, making the two very different types of weapons seem very similar. (-5)

Magic in this game is very similar to its predecessor, Morrowind, which isn't neccessarily a bad thing. The spell effects are wonderfully done, and you can still customize and create your own spells, which can get very fun. There's a large variety of spell effects to create with, and the spellmaking process will absolutely delight the creative mage, as the spellcrafting gives almost endless possibilities. You'll never find yourself at a lack of spell variety. (+10)

However, you can't seem to delete spells off your spellbook, making it very very cluttered in the long run. (-2)

Magical combat, however, is somewhat limited and feels too much like a first person shooter. I literally find myself circle strafing the enemy while attempting to lead my target with fireballs, just like my Q3 RA days. Though some might argue this isn't such a bad thing, I think it limits the potential of the game and breaks the immersion somewhat. (-2)

Another aspect of magical combat that's somewhat lacking are the mage duels. Whenever I fight an enemy mage, even an extremely powerful one, should be something epic and strategic, like they were in Baldur's Gate II. The other mage should put up his protections, I should try to strip them, while casting the right spell at the right time. In Oblivion, however, mage vs. mage battles pretty much boil down to Rocket duels in Quake 3. We both try to throw as much crap at each other while strafing madly from side to side trying to dodge each other's fireballs. I can throw up a resist lightning shield and the other mage will make no attempt to strip it, but instead continue to sling lightning attacks at me. (-3)

That said, magical combat is still very satisfying. The fireballs feel solid, and you actually feel your spells carry momentum, as that lightning burst slams your enemy against the wall, knocking the wind out of him. The effects are very well done, and the spells just "feels right". (+3)

Archery is greatly improved from Morrowind, thanks to Havok physics. Arrows bounce realistically off walls, stick out of enemies, and stick soundly to your shield with a solid "thwup". Turning that enemy into a porcupine with your arrows is certainly extremely satisfying, and feels very solid. (+10)

However, arrows just doesn't seem to do enough damage, compared to the sound thwap of a claymore or a fizzling fireball. The fact that it takes half a quiver of arrows just to put down a mountain lion seems a bit excessive and immersion breaking. (-3)

BUT, thankfully, I just found a mod that increases arrow damage to an acceptable level. Huzzah! The game is extremely moddable, which lets the community do a lot of tweaking and modding. However, as this review is about the game that comes right out of the box, this feature will be noted with a slight point shift. (+1)

Oblivion's sneaking model isn't as robust as it could be. The enemies seem all too omniscient for me, and I swear they can sense me through the walls, even when I have 58 points in sneaking, wearing full light armor and padded boots. It gets difficult telling which parts are "shadowy" and which parts will make you stick out like a sore thumb, and sometimes these "zones" seem all too arbitrary. (-3)

That said, there's a lot Oblivion offers to the prospective assasin. For example, the fact that you can coat your weapons and arrows with your own brand of alchemical poison is an excellent and innovative mechanic, and makes backstabbing that guard all the more satisfying. (+3)

You won't feel like Sam Fisher or Garret, but things can get very tense playing as thief, and the game portrays that very well. Bethsoft made huge improvements in the sneaking department over Morrowind, and it further shows the well-roundedness of this game. (+3)

Now that combat's done, let's talk about the user interface.

It. Is. Horrible.

Size 36 font? I feel like I'm in the large print section of my local bookstore, where old ladies with oversized bifocals dwell. Do we really NEED font sizes this big? We're not blind, you know.(-1)

Takes entirely way too many clicks and hotkeys to get where I want, be it my inventory, map, or skill list. (-1)

I can't zoom in on my map? What? (-1)

I can't delete spells? (I already deducted points about this before.)

Only 8 quickspell slots? Even Morrowind had 10. What's up with that? (-1)

What's with the generic item icons? Where's the description for the items? Can't drop quest items? What's with that? They're just cluttering my inventory. At least they don't carry weight. (-1)

Overall however, the gameplay is very enjoyable. The combat may be twitchy, but that's not neccessarily a bad thing, as long as you've the reflexes for it. It's just a different type of combat from what you're used to in an RPG. Combat is challenging and demanding, which makes it all the more satisfying when you win. Havok physics plays a large role, and all in all, in the end, the gameplay just feels fun. (+10)

Final Score: (35/40)


RPG MECHANICS (30/100)

Oblivion is an RPG, after all, and so a big part of it should be about roleplaying, and roleplaying means making choices and seeing the consequences of those choices unfold. This can be done through a myriad of ways, such as techniques in storytelling, character development, the setting, the theme, dialogue, and influence.

The plot, especially the narration and depth of the main actors, is leaps and bouns better than Morrowind, at least, in my opinion. The main plot seems more dynamic and exciting, and the characters involved seem much more fleshed out than the characters in Morrowind's main story. Can the plot, narration, and depth compared to those found in Planescape: Torment or Fallout? Of course not. Can it compare to that found in more recent RPG's like Fable, Dungeon Siege, or Morrowind? Most definitely so. (+10)

The majority of quests still follow the classic objectives of Fed Ex and Hitman, and pretty much involve little more than "Go there, fetch that item, bring it back to me" or "Go there, kill that guy, and report back to me". There is very little in terms of quest variety. There are a few quests about investigation, where you actually have to talk to various people, but since the compass points exactly at the person you have to talk to and "investigation" usually amounts to clicking on the corresponding wiki dialogue, much of the intrigue is gone. (-5)

However, the quests in Oblivion have come a long way since Morrowind. The quests feel more fleshed out, with a better narrative backbone, and gives you, the player, a better sense of exactly why you're doing the quest in the first place. (+7)

The game is still very, very linear. There's no branching points at any of the guild lines, and the quests for the main plot go one after another in a linear sequence, just like Morrowind.This means the player has NO impact on how the story will unfold. There will be no side switching, and for each given plotline, be it for a Guild or the main quest, the player is forced to play through a linear sequence of missions until one and only one ending is reached. Further more, with the exception of a few select quests, there's one and only one way to solve any given quest: by going to the place, beating everything up, and completing your objective. This completely destroys the whole Choice and Consequence deal that should be the backbone of any RPG. It makes the player feel like he's just going along for the ride, with nothing at stake, and no impact whatsoever on the outcome. (-15)

On the other hand, the quests, for the most part, are well designed, and you do have some freedom in how you want to complete a certain dungeon. Don't get me wrong - you WILL have to go down into that dungeon, but how you solve the dungeon is, for the most part, very liberal. You'll sometimes see objectives scattered throughout the dungeon, which you can explore and solve in any order at your leisure. You can also use sneak, magic, or brute force to negotiate any challenges you encounter. (+3)

The character generation is bare, but effective. Face gen is cool, sure, but that's just a cosmetic feature at best. The ability to mix and match your skillset from a large (albeit diminshed since Morrowind) skill pool should be nothing new to the Elder Scrolls fan. You'll certainly notice lack of many skills, and you won't have as much freedom with your character generation as you did in Morrowind (or, for that matter, Daggerfall), but you'll find the seven major skill slots to be generally adequate. (+2)

Unlike Morrowind, when your status and achievements go largely unrecognized by the masses, Oblivion has much better reactions from the NPCs when it comes to how much you've done to save their butts. For example, your subjects will address you by rank. If you're Arch-mage of the mages guild, your apprentices and scholars will address you as "archmage". You can even get your apprentices to follow you around and fight for you. This makes your achievements seem much more solid, and your satisfaction for having done them is accentuated. [+10]

However, don't choose Speechcraft as a major skill. It is, for the most part, totally useless. Combat, by and large, is the overwhelmingly popular way to solve any given quest, and for 99% of the time, the ONLY way to solve any given quest. There's very little room in wartorn Cyrodil for a diplomat. You'd much rather save that Speechcraft slot for a more violent-prone skill. (-3)

The persuasion minigame is also poorly designed and very immersion breaking. I would much prefer a simple "check vs. function(personality, speechcraft)" when it comes to an NPC's disposition. Apparently, in Tamriel, all conversation revolves around boasting, joking, threatening, and admiring. No wonder everybody hates each other. (-3)

The NPCs, like Morrowind, still use the whole wiki-dialogue system, which really doesn't help with making any of them memorable. This time around, however, there are even LESS wiki-options than Morrowind, which doesn't really help either. Most of the NPCs still seem soulless with zero personality what-so-ever. The fact that they walk around and do stuff because of Radiant AI just makes them seem even more robotic and bland. (-3)

However, as badly as the Radiant AI handles NPC-NPC interaction and banter, (I came across two guys who just kept on saying hello to each other for ages), it DOES bring the world alive. The world in Oblivion feels vibrant and alive compared to Morrowind because people ACTUALLY MOVE AROUND, thanks to Radiant AI. Though the effects are by and large cosmetic, as in the NPCs still lack personality, but at least the illusion of a living and breathing world is there, which is much more than can be said for Morrowind. Radiant AI adds that degree of unpredictability to the world, and that, in turn, adds life. This is a major plus in my book. (+10)

Now, you may not be able to roleplay a spear wielding cavalier, a levitating teleportating mage, or a savvy diplomat, one thing you CAN roleplay is a cartographer or a surveyor. (What, not everyone wanted to be astronauts when they were kids.) Oblivion's Cyrodil is HUGE. The landmass is easily larger than Morrowind, with lots of nook and crannies for the player to stumble upon and explore. After all, a large, freeroaming landmass IS the trademark of any TES game, and Oblivion delivers on this front beautifully. Yes, the world may FEEL smaller due to fast travel and horses, but if you actually go out and actively explore, you'll get a much better grasp of how large and varied it really is. (+5)

However, the compass puts a pretty big dent on the satisfication of finding that obscure cave or bandit hideout, as everything in a 3 mile radius is lit up quite succinctly on your compass. What do I do? Post-it. (-2)

The compass DOES have its uses, however. Sometimes, with Radiant AI making certain quest NPC's wander off, the compass takes out much of the frustrating guess work and leads you right to them. (+1)

However, if you're looking for intrigue or a more subtle solution to quests that COULD have taken a bit of wracking brainwork instead of "follow the red arrow", the compass is a big distracting. I wish the devs would have made it toggle-able, but alas, nope. (-1)

The Journal system is also in need of optimization. The quests are collated in chronological order, but sometimes, when you have so many current quests, or need to search for a specific completed quest, a different sorting order (for example, alphabetically) would have been just grand. Unfortunately, no such option is given. Unlike Morrowind, the specific dialogue associated with the quest is NOT SAVED in your journal. I sometimes wish that it were. (-2)

FINAL SCORE: (14/30)

AUDIO (10/100)

Audio is very important in today's video games, where hardware like surround sound and stereo systems are commonplace in everyone's household. Oblivion doesn't fail to deliver on this front.

The theme is immediately recognizable by any Morrowind player. The Oblivion theme is simply the Morrowind theme on steroids. This is good, because I loved the Morrowind theme. (+2)

The voice acting are all excellent, for the most part, and very well done. No complaints there. (+2)

The music is much more varied than in Morrowind. There are many, many more tracks available, whether you're exploring, fighting, or just moping around. (+2)

The sound effects are also spectacular, wether you're hearing the ambient sounds of the night, the clankings of the dungeon bowels, or the clashing of a steel on steel, you'll appreciate how beautiful and solid the sound effects are. [+4]

FINAL SCORE: (10/10)

Extra Credit Bonus, for whoever wrote up that orc in the Dark Brotherhood: +1

FINAL VERDICT

(77/100)

Oblivion is a wonderful action/adventure/exploration game, and not so much a roleplaying game. It's very easy to dive into this game and just have plain, unadulterated FUN, and that, I think, is THE most important part of a game. In that aspect, Oblivion shines as one of the greats.




THE OBLIGATORY FAQ:

Q: Are you being sarcastic?
A: No. Come on, what's with this question? Not everything I write HAS to be sarcastic. I'm allowed to be serious too, sometimes.

Q: Are you an official game reviewer?
A: I've wrote reviews for a bunch of different organizations over the years, but I'm writing this review solely on the basis of my own enjoyment, and will not be submitted to any magazine or gaming site.

Q: How did you determine the weighting on each catagory of your review?
A: Half common sense, half design. I wanted to review Oblivion as a GAME, not as part of a specific genre of games.

Q: Shouldn't Role-playing mechanics be weighed much more, since you know, Oblivion is an RPG and all that?
A: Maybe. I didn't think so. It's clear from the onset that Oblivion wasn't going to cater to the hardcore RPG community, and the goals of the developer are different from those that's to be expected from the makers of a PURE RPG. It's clear that Oblivion is trying to appeal to a wide audience, and is striving to have a conglomeration of features to make the sum much greater than any individual part. I think a good game review should judge the game based on the goals set out by the developers.

Q: LOL There are so many typos in this thread. Did you graduate high school?
A: Sorry about the typos. I'm typing this up on a bus. I'll proof read it when I get home.

Q: Listen up you stupid son of a scamp, your review sucks. YOU SUCK. STOP BEING SUCH A BETHSOFT FANBOY/HATER. OBLIVION IS THE BEST/WORST GAME EVAR!!! IT DESERVES A SCORE OF 1000000/-1000000 LOL!
A: That's not a question, stupid. You think Oblivion deserves a different score, hey, go write your own damn review.

Godot: ...
 

Daigoji_Gai

Scholar
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
261
whitemithrandir said:
Q: Shouldn't Role-playing mechanics be weighed much more, since you know, Oblivion is an RPG and all that?
A: Maybe. I didn't think so. It's clear from the onset that Oblivion wasn't going to cater to the hardcore RPG community, and the goals of the developer are different from those that's to be expected from the makers of a PURE RPG. It's clear that Oblivion is trying to appeal to a wide audience, and is striving to have a conglomeration of features to make the sum much greater than any individual part. I think a good game review should judge the game based on the goals set out by the developers.

CHEERS AND WELL SAID! *bows in reverence*
Fanbois wuvs you.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,161
Can the plot, narration, and depth compared to those found in Planescape: Torment or Fallout? Of course not. Can it compare to that found in more recent RPG's like Fable, Dungeon Siege, or Morrowind? Most definitely so. (+10)

Nice review and all, but i don't get this.

So the plot doesn't measure to games with good stories such as Torment ect., but since it compares to games with shitty story lines than it's a +10? huh?
 

Daigoji_Gai

Scholar
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Mar 24, 2006
Messages
261
whitemithrandir said:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=305385

There. That's my post on the official forums. Feel free to leave feedback there, as I think discussion will get one-sided here really, really fast.

Done and done man. Though I have to say, that was quite a "fair and balanced" review. You note key RPG Codex cynic gripes, but also don't use those gripes to wax over the entire product, noting the things that are worth merit and are done well.

Cheers again, I have a bottle of Kaikouzu Sake, combination of Sweet Potato and Rice I was going to have a few shots of tonight during my oblivion session. The first drink good sir will be in your good name.
 

rei1974

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Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
105
Damn so even Oblivion isn't really a true RPG? sigh I just ordered my copy now...
 

mister lamat

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rei1974 said:
Damn so even Oblivion isn't really a true RPG? sigh I just ordered my copy now...

i'd say it's more akin to a classic p&p sunday afternoon dungeon romp than pretty much any other rpg out there... for what it's worth.

if you want to roleplay in the game, the system allows it very well. you're given a huge range of choices and it's up to you as to how or what will motivate your character.
 

Daigoji_Gai

Scholar
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Mar 24, 2006
Messages
261
rei1974 said:
Damn so even Oblivion isn't really a true RPG? sigh I just ordered my copy now...

Rei that depends. The core gripes are the dialogue and lack of consequences choices in the Fallout vein. If you are looking for Fallout dialogue trees with Oblivion graphics, you will be waiting for some time.

What Oblivion does offer, IMHO, is a PnP experience. It is a sandbox, where if you suspend disbelief, accept the world and try to live out that character's life you will find a rewarding experience.

Example, my character is a cowardly theif, being an old PnP guy, I feel oblivion has all the tools I need to roleplay as I use to back around a desk with other geeks, sugar, caffeine and dice. I've been having rewarding adventures, and in the quests I have encountered, had real consequences as a result of my actions -cowardly or otherwise.

Case in point, one fighter guild mission has you delivering weapons to some guildies held up in a mine overrun by goblins. I was tempted to keep the weapons for myself and say screw the guild... I went off to pick some plants for poison potions for my arrows, and mustered up the courage to help them out. The four of us got split up in the caves (im a slow methodical killer, avoiding anything that swings I.C. - they ran forward with gusto - Fighters Guild members... peh) and it took some time before I met up with... the orc I gave the hammer to. I decided he had nice shiny mail armor, and decided to kill him.

I took a few shots, and he yelled he was on my team, I refrained when the third member (chick with the bow) suddenly came running up (to see what is going on??)... I had, fortunately, wounded the orc mortally, and in the next room a goblin boss took him down. I ran back and let the others deal with the boss and I looted my good friend the orc. Once all the drama subsided and the cave was cleared, I headed back to the Fighters Guild, only to be chewed out by the foul orc that provided the mission. Consequence, a minor one for my greed instead of helping, but I still got paid.

Another was the two solutions I found to a quest early on. Kill the person you may get a few cool gear items, if you take them hostage and lock them below deck you get a bounty and will bump into that person later for something else.

There are quite a few "undocumented" quests in the game that don't have as many solutions as Fallout had, but do 2 or 3 depending on how you handle the situation based on your character skills.
 

whitemithrandir

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Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,115
Lyric Suite said:
Can the plot, narration, and depth compared to those found in Planescape: Torment or Fallout? Of course not. Can it compare to that found in more recent RPG's like Fable, Dungeon Siege, or Morrowind? Most definitely so. (+10)

Nice review and all, but i don't get this.

So the plot doesn't measure to games with good stories such as Torment ect., but since it compares to games with shitty story lines than it's a +10? huh?

If the story measured up to Planescape: Torment, it would have been (+300).

Cheers again, I have a bottle of Kaikouzu Sake, combination of Sweet Potato and Rice I was going to have a few shots of tonight during my oblivion session. The first drink good sir will be in your good name.

Sake is good, but it makes me tipsy. Last time I had sake was on a transcontinental flight to China. I slept through six movies.
 

Daigoji_Gai

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whitemithrandir said:
If the story measured up to Planescape: Torment, it would have been (+300).

I still have Torment installed - though I haven't touched it since last August. I love that game, but I still hate - hate - hate how close the perspective in. Granted I didn't want something as pulled back as Baldur's Gate (because of the beautiful animations) but geeez it got frustrating in a few points not being able to see ... just... a ... little... further.. ahead.

Given how I hate dungeon mazes (argh, argh argh - I'm getting tired of sewers), and how long I take to explore a dungeon out of paranoia, the perspective was my only gripe with the game... That and I wanted another game in the Planescape universe but never got it.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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whitemithrandir said:
If the story measured up to Planescape: Torment, it would have been (+300).

Not but your scoring criteria it would have. If you had to be perfectly partial, you would be forced to stick to your basic premise and give Torment a +10, as well.

You can't start a review with the idea excellence doesn't count just because games like Torment are a rare, one of a kind experience, then procede to rate mediocrity with a different standard.
 

whitemithrandir

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Lyric Suite said:
whitemithrandir said:
If the story measured up to Planescape: Torment, it would have been (+300).

Not but your scoring criteria it would have. If you had to be perfectly partial, you would be forced to stick to your basic premise and give Torment a +10, as well.

You can't start a review with the idea excellence doesn't count just because games like Torment are a rare, one of a kind experience...

Alright. In the realm of RPG's, Planescape: Torment is Jesus. You don't fuck with Jesus. Nobody can be perfect, like Jesus. Planescape: Torment is a 100*j/100. Yes, that's right. It's an imaginary score. That's because it's so good, it transcends the real number line.
 

Daigoji_Gai

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Lyric Suite said:
You can't start a review with the idea excellence doesn't count just because games like Torment are a rare, one of a kind experience, then procede to rate mediocrity with a different standard.

No, you can't but you can. You must acknowledge that games like Torment and Fallout are rare and one of a kind... they set standards so high that it is hard, but not impossible, to meet and surpass.

That said, what he did was acknowledge that these are gems, pinnacles of the genre, but took time to take into consideration what current offerings are - that is what is a given that is "par for the course" or what has become the "norm" for crpgs.

It is a balancing act that he did very well. What everyone has to realize is that every so often magic does occur, and with the growth of the industry, that magic - part of it being the freedom of creativity that was found in the games industry (it still is, but harder to come by) is being dwindled as it becomes less of a hobby and niche and more mainstream.

There is a great interview I read with Tim Schaffer (formerly of LucasArts - Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Day of the Tenactle) where he talks about the difficulties during the making of the (almost vaporware) Psychonauts. In it he notes that at one time, the industry was bolder, they could take greater risks... but as the industry grew and started to reach a wider audience, many game companies, specifically much of the larger ones, changed into mass production facilities. Its the independent developers who struggle for publishing rights you have to put your faith in.

Im all over the place in this rant, hope I was somewhat clear - Im distracted, 40 mins before I can run home and install those cool new mods for Oblivion... drool.
 

Daigoji_Gai

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whitemithrandir said:
Alright. In the realm of RPG's, Planescape: Torment is Jesus. You don't fuck with Jesus. Nobody can be perfect, like Jesus. Planescape: Torment is a 100*j/100. Yes, that's right. It's an imaginary score. That's because it's so good, it transcends the real number line.

Wait, so if Planescape: Torment is Jesus, who makes the rest of the Holy CRPG trinity?
Fallout = The Holy Ghost?
Baldur's Gate 2 = God? *Jon was such a badass... you know he was....
 

Vault Dweller

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Daigoji_Gai said:
No, you can't but you can. You must acknowledge that games like Torment and Fallout are rare and one of a kind... they set standards so high that it is hard, but not impossible, to meet and surpass.
With this attitude, it's definitely impossible. If the media keeps throwing top marks at crappy games, why even bother trying? Keep in mind though, that both games were sleeper hits, made by relatively small teams, made without hype and lies, made because someone wanted to make a good game, not the one that appeals to everyone and doesn't disappoint anyone.
 

whitemithrandir

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Vault Dweller said:
Daigoji_Gai said:
No, you can't but you can. You must acknowledge that games like Torment and Fallout are rare and one of a kind... they set standards so high that it is hard, but not impossible, to meet and surpass.
With this attitude, it's definitely impossible. If the media keeps throwing top marks at crappy games, why even bother trying? Keep in mind though, that both games were sleeper hits, made by relatively small teams, made without hype and lies, made because someone wanted to make a good game, not the one that appeals to everyone and doesn't disappoint anyone.

I'm still waiting for your review, VD, since you've got your uberl33t ENIAC 2006 supercomputer.

Hurry up plz. :oops:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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I just want to make sure I play enough before I unleash my negative opinion on the unsuspecting public.

Spoiler: The RPG part of the game is god-fucking-awful. The exploring dungeons part is not bad. It would have been great if not for that stupid "everything is scaled to your level" design. No challenge, no reward (loot becomes meaningless), no immersion (dominating everything at level 1 sucks). I'm truly surprised at how incompetent Bethesda developers are.
 

Daigoji_Gai

Scholar
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Messages
261
Vault Dweller said:
Daigoji_Gai said:
No, you can't but you can. You must acknowledge that games like Torment and Fallout are rare and one of a kind... they set standards so high that it is hard, but not impossible, to meet and surpass.
With this attitude, it's definitely impossible. If the media keeps throwing top marks at crappy games, why even bother trying? Keep in mind though, that both games were sleeper hits, made by relatively small teams, made without hype and lies, made because someone wanted to make a good game, not the one that appeals to everyone and doesn't disappoint anyone.

I think you reiterated my point about the small underhyped game companies. Those are a dying breed my friend, and unfortunately we must put our hopes in small developers that are struggling to find publishers. Additionally VD, ratings are often given based on personal opinion. You can not, and it is ridiculous to do this, set Torment or Fallout as the only game that receives a 100% - like you identified, the creation of these games, the time when they were created, and the people behind them were unique for their time. I am not saying it can't happen again, but you must understand the name of the game now - the industry is becoming like Hollywood. You will have independent titles and of course main stream wanna-be blockbusters.

I also must say you are being melodramatic saying it is bold faced lies. Do you really believe that these guys promise features to fool fans? That is ridiculous. During the development cycle of a game features are lost because of time (deadlines), budget, and relevance (you don't want to release a dated looking game). That said, look at Half-Life 2 and God of War (for the record, I thought God of War was overhyped and dull BUT the industry - my colleagues loved it). They both promised lots, but features (in Half-Life 2 the blue tentacle creature that was highlighted in numerous E3 videos, in God of War the flight level and numerous boss battles were removed after much publicity surrounding their inclusion). They didn't lie by promising these elements, or getting hungry for them... during development those lofty ideals were found to be unattainable and had to be dropped. Or design changes after they feel things aren't going in the right direction. It is one thing to be cynical, but saying these guys, many of which are die hard gamers are out simply to lie to people is just being a little childish, IMHO.

Now, about the review scores. If you set Torment and Fallout to YOUR standards, perfect 100s, then no other game would hit 65% or 75% based on your standards. Some people feel that Citizen Kane is the greatest movie of all time. If that was the case, Crash last year and Brokeback Mountain shouldn't have deserved the 5-star ratings they do.

The scoring system is relative, one based on the reviewers past gaming experiences, and 2 based on the current climate in the genre.

I also need to know what template you guys are using... I AM STILL BEING OWNED at Level 9 with my bow by anything other than bandits, mudcrabs and rats!
 

whitemithrandir

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Daigoji_Gai said:
I also need to know what template you guys are using... I AM STILL BEING OWNED at Level 9 with my bow by anything other than bandits, mudcrabs and rats!

Learn to strafe jump, newbie.

I play a fireball slinging mage and you'll find the speed of a travelling fireball is almost exactly the same as the speed of a rocket in Quake 3, and I fucking own at Quake 3.
 

HardCode

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The two underlined statements seem contradictory. Is a score adjustment in order?

whitemithrandir said:
On the other hand, the quests, for the most part, are well designed, and you do have some freedom in how you want to complete a certain dungeon. Don't get me wrong - you WILL have to go down into that dungeon, but how you solve the dungeon is, for the most part, very liberal. You'll sometimes see objectives scattered throughout the dungeon, which you can explore and solve in any order at your leisure. You can also use sneak, magic, or brute force to negotiate any challenges you encounter. (+3)

whitemithrandir said:
However, don't choose Speechcraft as a major skill. It is, for the most part, totally useless. Combat, by and large, is the overwhelmingly popular way to solve any given quest, and for 99% of the time, the ONLY way to solve any given quest. There's very little room in wartorn Cyrodil for a diplomat. You'd much rather save that Speechcraft slot for a more violent-prone skill. (-3)
 

whitemithrandir

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HardCode said:
The two underlined statements seem contradictory. Is a score adjustment in order?

whitemithrandir said:
On the other hand, the quests, for the most part, are well designed, and you do have some freedom in how you want to complete a certain dungeon. Don't get me wrong - you WILL have to go down into that dungeon, but how you solve the dungeon is, for the most part, very liberal. You'll sometimes see objectives scattered throughout the dungeon, which you can explore and solve in any order at your leisure. You can also use sneak, magic, or brute force to negotiate any challenges you encounter. (+3)

whitemithrandir said:
However, don't choose Speechcraft as a major skill. It is, for the most part, totally useless. Combat, by and large, is the overwhelmingly popular way to solve any given quest, and for 99% of the time, the ONLY way to solve any given quest. There's very little room in wartorn Cyrodil for a diplomat. You'd much rather save that Speechcraft slot for a more violent-prone skill. (-3)

Sneaking up on a guy to backstab him, throwing a fireball in his face, and stabbling his eyes out with your sword are what I consider to be COMBAT SOLUTIONS.

Now, if you could go up to him and be like "Hey, you look pretty well off. I was sent off by the fighters guild to kill you, but you know what? How about I join you guys instead, if you pay me a bit of money?", then it would be a NON-COMBAT solution.
 

HardCode

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Right, so then the +3 should be less, like a +1, since you cannot solve the quest by non-combat stealth or magic or diplomacy?
 

whitemithrandir

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HardCode said:
Right, so then the +3 should be less, like a +1, since you cannot solve the quest by non-combat stealth or magic or diplomacy?

I deducted 3 points off for this flaw afterwards. The +3 is for the amount of variety in COMBAT options. The -3 later is for COMBAT OPTIONS being the ONLY OPTIONS.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Daigoji_Gai said:
I think you reiterated my point about the small underhyped game companies.
Interplay/Black Isle was neither small nor underhyped.

Additionally VD, ratings are often given based on personal opinion.
No kidding.

You can not, and it is ridiculous to do this, set Torment or Fallout as the only game that receives a 100%
I didn't suggest that.

I am not saying it can't happen again, but you must understand the name of the game now - the industry is becoming like Hollywood.
I understand that. I'm just wondering how quickly the name of the game will change if game reviewers grow some balls to tell what they really think. Don't sing me a song about personal opinions. NWN got top scores, and a year later most of those reviewers have openly stated that the game was dull, uninspiring, and, well, crap. I don't believe that Desslock thought that Dungeon Siege is a great action game. I don't believe that all those reviewers thought that Black & White is brilliant. I don't think that most people are too stupid to ignore Oblivion's flaws. You don't have to trash the game to point out the flaws.

I also must say you are being melodramatic saying it is bold faced lies. Do you really believe that these guys promise features to fool fans? That is ridiculous.
Is it really? Is it ridiculous to think that a salesman can lie to you to sell a product? lol. You are funny, Gai.

It is one thing to be cynical, but saying these guys, many of which are die hard gamers are out simply to lie to people is just being a little childish, IMHO.
And to assume otherwise is just a little naive, don't you think?

The scoring system is relative, one based on the reviewers past gaming experiences, and 2 based on the current climate in the genre.
Which is why the Codex doesn't have one. Teh innovashun!
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Mar 10, 2003
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"NWN got top scores, and a year later most of those reviewers have openly stated that the game was dull, uninspiring, and, well, crap"

Bullshit.

At worst, they said they it wasn't as perfect as they claimed. In fact, the one place that said they overrated it later compalined that the toolset wasn't as good as they thought; but the OC was still great (to them).

Don't bullshit the bullshitters, bullshitter.

And, oh, btw, even without playing Oblivion; I *know* it sucks.

Idiots.
 

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