Oblivion Hate- From an industry "insider"

This is my first post ladies and gents so be gentle with me...

I am a game reviewer, a quirky one at that. I tend to like a lot of games that my fellow professional tear to shreds. Of course, my favorite genre is RPGs - a genre that has lost (IMHO) the immersion and freedom to act mostly thanks to narrative driven "adventure" games from Japan. You know them, no need to call them by name.

I've done it all, from the early Ultima titles (with IV and Serpent Ilse being my favorites... even have a love for 9 once patched and now computers can run it), Baldurs Gate, those early TSR D&D games, Fallout series, you name it I've played it.

A friend sent me a link to this site, as I guess I am a dellusional fanboy. I've always loved Bethsoft's RPGs, Arena and Daggerfall hooked me and I still have have those discs to this day.

I've noticed a lot of torches and pitchforks being readied and I'm sure the guys in Bethesda are readying to barracade themselves; but I've also noticed a lot of interesting "Beth must have paid them posts."

I am not reviewing the game for my site, but I was fascinated by many of the responses, and are merely curious about them.

If you look at the RPG genre today, there are only a "handful" of titles that put the "role" back in as this site uses as its motto. The Baldur's Gate games, Fallout series, Gothic and of course Elder Scrolls. I would even place Gothic and ES above Baldur's Gate and Fallout. (Honorable mention to Arcanum, though many of its elements give the impression that Troika (mournfully RIP) was being lazy.

To me, a decent RPG doesn't limit the user, and offers a gamut of options and features and the freedom to carve your own path in the world, and that is what E.S. does. It isn't perfect, and the ES games never have, plagued with bugs and occasionally clunky controls. But when it comes to immersion, scale of world, professions, NPC and world interaction, I am hard pressed to find any equivalent.

So my question is, am I being paid to come here to say I like Oblivion? I have my gripes with the title (the greatest of which being the absence of a traditional PC inventory, and the adoption of a more console friendly interface. 3 days later, the interface has grown on me and is clean and efficient, but I long for inventory slots and seeing my items stored in bags and satchels.)

I hope this post isn't edited because I am praising the title, and would actually like to hear some feedback. I am dying for Gothic 3, don't get me wrong, but to lambast credibility because someone loves this, and let us be honest, utterly expansive and immersive game world, as being "paid" by Bethsoft baffles my mind.

Heh, I wish in my job we did get "paid off"... maybe I wouldn't have to whore myself out at night. Additionally, being a Bethsoft fanboi since day 1, I must say they are one of the few development houses that actually listen and engage their customers. For the record, I'm not too happy about them and other game companies getting hot in the pants for consoles and are making more "console friendly" controls and interfaces (Invisible War traumatized me - but was an interesting story and faithful minus the neat additions that made the original a classic on the PC).

Anyway take care guys, looking to hear some feedback.

K.H. from UGO.com

And for the record, excuse my typos. As my newbie title indicates, I'm barely literate. 8p


Its true.

There is nothing wrong with liking Oblivion. It is calling it an RPG, and an amazing one at that that usually crosses the line.

Temoid said:

There is nothing wrong with liking Oblivion. It is calling it an RPG, and an amazing one at that that usually crosses the line.

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That is the interesting caveat isn't it? I am one that believes that Oblivion is amazing and an RPG. My reasons being:

Amazing:
*A visual triumph/technical achievement.
*The sense of scale, history and lore embedded (even their playful stuff like Anu and Padomay)
*The freedom of customization in your character's template (stat sheet) - no other RPG save for Baldurs Gate and Fallout offered such freedom in profession.
*The world is alive - NPCs are not cardboard cutouts (ok some are) but they are active, and make the world seem alive. The Ultima series had this, but nothing on this scale.

As for the RPG title - this aspect of the debate baffles me. What defines the RPG genre today? Third person adventure games with limited career choices, a forced narrative, and a world that is frozen in time to explore. Being an PnP dork, I define an RPG as a game that offers the experience for me to actively take on a role and walk the life of my avatar. To experience his life by being able to make the choices (in-character) he would make. To be able to vanish from a forced adventure when I want and take time to stroll, and smell the roses.

I am hard pressed to find or remember a game that delivers this besides Gothic.

So, er what's your question/point?

I can only see one which is:

"So my question is, am I being paid to come here to say I like Oblivion? "

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And how do you expect us to know?

Also why did you start a new thread? There are already a few million Oblivion threads where people post their impressions. Just because you're an 'insider' it should be treated as a new topic in itself?

sheek said:

So, er what's your question/point?

I can only see one which is:

"So my question is, am I being paid to come here to say I like Oblivion? "

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And how do you expect us to know?

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Questions are:

1) What prevents many of you from defining Oblivion as an RPG
2) What other "RPG" matches the scale, features, and flexibility of any of the E.S. games?
3) From some posts it appears that "cooler animations" would have made it a better game.. *blink* Cooler animations make an RPG?
4) What is it about Oblivion that makes some of you "haters"?

Simply curious about the responses - and it was spurred on what seems to be a disdain for the us in the media (though i didn't do a review) which is rightfully giving the game the praise it deserves and critisizing its faults.

Self-discrediting UGO review is subtitled: "Oblivion proves beyond any doubt that RPGs don't have to come from Japan to be brilliant."

Real question is, why is a UGO Network employee wasting time on an RPG site which is generally loathed by the 'specialized' industry and something to ignore in many gamer's minds?

The game has it's moments for sure, it's just the fact it was over hyped and well anyone who's played the game knows the flaws and short comings it has. The dialog in the game is terrible, worse than Morrowind even imho. I won't start on the other console related flaws but I really expected better dialog and I guess alot people,(I know I am) don't like the fact the game looks like it was made for a console and was ported over to the PC.

DX:IW got patched and it helped it's interface and stuff... I don't see a patch fixing Oblivions thou.


Anyway nothing wrong with liking a game, but you gotta see that the game could've and should have been better.

I probably should have read the forum rules.

I also wanted to make a clean thread rather than jump into a fray where frustrating accusations of bribery are being made.

I apologize good sir, if it was wrong for me to make a new post, and indicating that im an "insider" was only to try to clarify that I am foolishly trying to defend my colleagues in this area and not to brag if that is what you were implying. I do this alot, enter the trenches, foolishly defending titles I love - unfortunately this is one of the rare times when I actually agree with other reviewers... My tastes are quirky.

Sheek - I probably should have read the forum rules.

I also wanted to make a clean thread rather than jump into a fray where frustrating accusations of bribery are being made.

I apologize good sir, if it was wrong for me to make a new post, and indicating that im an "insider" was only to try to clarify that I am foolishly trying to defend my colleagues in this area and not to brag if that is what you were implying. I do this alot, enter the trenches, foolishly defending titles I love - unfortunately this is one of the rare times when I actually agree with other reviewers... My tastes are quirky.

Whoa! There are forum rules?

To experience his life by being able to make the choices (in-character) he would make.

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Whot coices gives oblivion in quest, and whot are the counsequences of your decisions?

To be able to vanish from a forced adventure when I want and take time to stroll, and smell the roses.

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Forced adventure? Where nothing of that in fallout or arcanum. You will not find praise of jrpg at rpgcodex.

he freedom of customization in your character's template (stat sheet) - no other RPG save for Baldurs Gate and Fallout offered such freedom in profession.

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In fallout the skills andstats you choose had impact on dialogue trees and diferent posibilities in resolving quest. Whot is the diference in oblivion? You can kill someting whit sword or magic and you can use stealth, any other?

Daigoji_Gai said:

If you look at the RPG genre today, there are only a "handful" of titles that put the "role" back in as this site uses as its motto. The Baldur's Gate games, Fallout series, Gothic and of course Elder Scrolls. I would even place Gothic and ES above Baldur's Gate and Fallout.

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WTF?!

WouldBeCreator said:

Self-discrediting UGO review is subtitled: "Oblivion proves beyond any doubt that RPGs don't have to come from Japan to be brilliant."

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Not sure if that is self-decrediting. There are some here that believe Japanese "adventure games" are great. Difference of opinion, and that is what a reviewer does, offer their opinion based on their experiences and tastes. Whether it be movie or book reviews that is what you read, so when going for a review or searching for one it is important to know the reviewer's tastes and see if they agree with yours.

For example I don't classify Japanese RPGs as RPGs. I think of them as adventure games. If I wrote the subtitle, I wouldn't have chose those words. So saying it is "self-discrediting" is being somewhat melodramatic.

Of course, that is just MY opinion, and you don't have to agree with it. That's is what is great about writing and talking about this stuff when it doesn't deteriorate to flames and rancid arguments of hatred.

Daigoji_Gai said:

Being an PnP dork, I define an RPG as a game that offers the experience for me to actively take on a role and walk the life of my avatar. To experience his life by being able to make the choices (in-character) he would make.
I am hard pressed to find or remember a game that delivers this besides Gothic.

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Actually your definition of RPG is not quite too far away from the codexer's one, but where do you see these qualities in Oblibion or Morrowind?

Daigoji_Gai said:

This is my first post ladies and gents so be gentle with me...
To me, a decent RPG doesn't limit the user, and offers a gamut of options and features and the freedom to carve your own path in the world, and that is what E.S. does. It isn't perfect, and the ES games never have, plagued with bugs and occasionally clunky controls. But when it comes to immersion, scale of world, professions, NPC and world interaction, I am hard pressed to find any equivalent.
K.H. from UGO.com

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Good RPGs are very limiting to the user. Barbarians shouldn't be able to use magic, and wizards shouldn't be able to use swords. There is too much freedom in this regard in RPGs. There is also too much difficulty playing as a villain. Freeform games like Oblivion with relatively unimportant stories should be friendlier to villains. People who don't care for the story should be able to play their own way, so evil options should be more common. Story based games that tend to be more linear don't need as much freedom, but Oblivion does. It just doesn't have it.

TalesfromtheCrypt said:

Daigoji_Gai said:

If you look at the RPG genre today, there are only a "handful" of titles that put the "role" back in as this site uses as its motto. The Baldur's Gate games, Fallout series, Gothic and of course Elder Scrolls. I would even place Gothic and ES above Baldur's Gate and Fallout.

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WTF?!

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Cool Jagged Alliance avatar. Forgot about that series.
Ill clarify my opinion on this. I may be a dork, but in an MMO I always go for the unofficial role playing servers. I'm 27, and grew up having no problem in PnP getting into the shoes of my character and becoming that person.

With games, unfortunately because of development and technical limitations, titles are forced to focus on a few elements. Kitchen sink approaches (everything including) often fail horribly as time that should be spent on a specific aspect of gameplay is cut short to try to include everything.

I distinguish the games above from others simply because of the "freedom" they allow you to experience. You can become that character and do what you want, in some games moreso than others. That to me is role-play, assuming a role and making choices and taking actions in lieu with who that character you created is.

In Oblivion I take this to heart (much to my girlfriend's worrry). My character is a rif-raf, a lazy thug, and a bit of a coward. He talks the talk and rarely walks the walk, and with the freedom of Oblivion I've actually been able to accomplish such a character... too cheap to pay for an inn and an opportunist that will pick pocket, backstab or otherwise betray even a best friend if the pay off is right.

I thought that was role playing, and Oblivion offered me the freedom to do it. The other games I mention didn't offer as nearly as much freedom, but I was still IMMERSED and felt free to do as I will as the character.

I guess the question is, am I defining role-play wrong?

Daigoji_Gai said:

That is the interesting caveat isn't it? I am one that believes that Oblivion is amazing and an RPG. My reasons being:

Amazing:
*A visual triumph/technical achievement.
*The sense of scale, history and lore embedded (even their playful stuff like Anu and Padomay)
*The freedom of customization in your character's template (stat sheet) - no other RPG save for Baldurs Gate and Fallout offered such freedom in profession.
*The world is alive - NPCs are not cardboard cutouts (ok some are) but they are active, and make the world seem alive. The Ultima series had this, but nothing on this scale.

As for the RPG title - this aspect of the debate baffles me. What defines the RPG genre today? Third person adventure games with limited career choices, a forced narrative, and a world that is frozen in time to explore. Being an PnP dork, I define an RPG as a game that offers the experience for me to actively take on a role and walk the life of my avatar. To experience his life by being able to make the choices (in-character) he would make. To be able to vanish from a forced adventure when I want and take time to stroll, and smell the roses.

I am hard pressed to find or remember a game that delivers this besides Gothic.

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I'm sure the graphics are pretty/well-done/pleasing to the eye - despite the oft-reported problems with bloom and the lack of shadows. The graphics, however, were lauded to the heavens by Bethesda - all the usual hype: "cutting-edge", "next-generation", "photo-realisitc", in other words, the same crap that just about every other company trots out about it's latest ouvre. But this is beside the point - pretty graphics (while nice) do not gameplay or immersion make and it seems to me (and possibly a few others) that Bethesda concentrated so much on graphics that they had little time or resource left for anything else.

Sure ES games have always been large scale, although I find it deeply ironic that - as computers have improved - "large" scale tends to mean something very different to what it did 10-15 years ago. While the lore is consistant, that's pretty much what you'd expect from a game from a long-running series. These are nice elements - and ones that Bethesda do well - and they certainly add to the atmosphere of the ES games. But they are not vital elements to your role-playing experience.

Freedom to customize your character? This is a staple of RPGs - some (ESII, Baldur's Gate) do it better than others. But what good is customisation when there are no consequences to your choices? When, after several days play, you can be as good in the skills you didn't choose as you are in the skills you did? And what is the point of having skills if you (the player) are expected to solve the problems by mouse-clicks and application of the little grey cells instead of having you (the avatar) solving problems using the skill-set you've picked?

I'm still hearing mixed reports on RAI - some people (rather predicably) are saying that's it's the neatest thing since sliced bread while others are pointing out that there are problems. While RAI may add life to the NPCs, from what I've seen/heard so far, it is a far cry from what it was hyped up to be by Bethesda and way short of what the fanboys imagined it would be.

Oblivion seems to be a fairly decent 1st person action/adventure game but it fails to shine as a RPG. There are no dialogue tress, no meaningful choices, no direct consequences in the gaming world to your actions, no class-specific solutions to most of the quests, an over-emphasis on combat... I could go on but, in all honesty, this is ground that has been covered many times before by people both more knowledgeable and eloquent than I am


Edit: As to whether you're getting "paid" to "defend" Oblivion, is a question I can't even begin to answer. Certainly you are being "paid" by the fact that your "defense" of the game won't get you into dutch next time there are preview copies of Bethesda's next game being handed out...

Daigoji_Gai said:

For example I don't classify Japanese RPGs as RPGs. I think of them as adventure games. If I wrote the subtitle, I wouldn't have chose those words. So saying it is "self-discrediting" is being somewhat melodramatic.

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Whatever they are, they're good at telling stories. Few Western RPGs can compare to a good (read: old) Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior. They're simple, but at least they're relatively balanced. They're hard to really mess up, so there are plenty of good ones, but not many amazing ones.

Western RPGs typically have lame stories. The focus is on the characters and the R in RPG. I didn't care about the water chip at all in Fallout for a long time. Exploring the world was more fun to me. I like the Western perspective more; if I wanted a story, I would read a book. Few games are both balanced and have an interesting story, like Planescape: Torment. Fallout was a safer game to make because the story was not hugely important. Too much focus on the story and not enough on freedom turns a Western RPG into a j"RPG".

NeVeRLiFt said:

The game has it's moments for sure, it's just the fact it was over hyped and well anyone who's played the game knows the flaws and short comings it has. The dialog in the game is terrible, worse than Morrowind even imho. I won't start on the other console related flaws but I really expected better dialog and I guess alot people,(I know I am) don't like the fact the game looks like it was made for a console and was ported over to the PC.

DX:IW got patched and it helped it's interface and stuff... I don't see a patch fixing Oblivions thou.

Anyway nothing wrong with liking a game, but you gotta see that the game could've and should have been better.

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Over-hyped, perhaps? Or you can look at the over-hype as being long over due praise. TESS has always been plagued with problems, but they have been amazing open ended experiences unmatched anywhere else.

Granted, dialogue and that frustrating console interface is disappointing for PC users, but that does not severely detract from what it has accomplished and does offer.

I have to give props to the Bethesda guys. Its a small private company in Mass that have been churning these games out for the longest. They aren't an EA - which is an overhyping powerhouse that releases mediocre games. These guys deserve the credit, and perhaps knowing their story, and how this "exposure" is long overdue, softens my reaction to the hype.

For me, it met the hype. Being familiar with the series, the dialogue and generic fantasy stuff has always been mediocre - though there are "moments" when there is true intelligence, and wit in the writing. They have fun with the world and themselves, and the storyline is far better than I remember conjuring up with friends sitting around a table rolling dice. :wink:

Daigoji_Gai said:

WouldBeCreator said:

Self-discrediting UGO review is subtitled: "Oblivion proves beyond any doubt that RPGs don't have to come from Japan to be brilliant."

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Not sure if that is self-decrediting. There are some here that believe Japanese "adventure games" are great. Difference of opinion, and that is what a reviewer does, offer their opinion based on their experiences and tastes. Whether it be movie or book reviews that is what you read, so when going for a review or searching for one it is important to know the reviewer's tastes and see if they agree with yours.

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Anyone who believes that Japanese RPGs are the only brilliant RPGs -- as the subtitle suggests -- is totally fucking batty. Period. Even if you prefer them. Even if you don't like most Western ones. I find it next to impossible to believe that anyone *paid* to analyze computer games could be that fucking idiotic.

For example I don't classify Japanese RPGs as RPGs. I think of them as adventure games.

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Which is idiotic as well, for innumerable reasons. As I've pointed out in another thread, computer adventure games are puzzle-solving, combat-light games that trace their lineage to Colossal Cave, whereas computer RPGs are puzzle-light, combat-heavy games that trace their lineage to Dungeon. The effort to shove Japanese RPGs into the adventure genre is just a joke.

If I wrote the subtitle, I wouldn't have chose those words. So saying it is "self-discrediting" is being somewhat melodramatic.

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Okay, Captain Nonsequitur. By the way -- "have chosen." :D

Of course, that is just MY opinion, and you don't have to agree with it. That's is what is great about writing and talking about this stuff when it doesn't deteriorate to flames and rancid arguments of hatred.

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Let me get this straight -- you're relying on bullshit relativism to *defend* a subtitle that claims both that Oblivion is objective "proof" that Western RPGs aren't universally inferior and that prior to Oblivion, jRPGs had an exclusive claim to brilliance? And you're accusing *me* of hyperbole? Check the beam in your own eye, son.

Jung said:

Whoa! There are forum rules?

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Why, of course:

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Daigoji_Gai said:

In Oblivion I take this to heart (much to my girlfriend's worrry). My character is a rif-raf, a lazy thug, and a bit of a coward. He talks the talk and rarely walks the walk, and with the freedom of Oblivion I've actually been able to accomplish such a character... too cheap to pay for an inn and an opportunist that will pick pocket, backstab or otherwise betray even a best friend if the pay off is right.

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Thievery is buggy in ES games. Hell, playing as a rogue always seems to be ignored in RPGs; everyone wants to be a knight or wizard. The thief gets neglected, as usual. Interestingly, there isn't much in the way of religion in Oblivion. There aren't tons of evil kvlts to join, for example. It seems as if they didn't want to offend anyone with it.

Kraszu said:

Whot coices gives oblivion in quest, and whot are the counsequences of your decisions?

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There are multiple solutions to many quests, via persuasion, force, or cunning. The consequences vary, from turning factions and towns against you, gaining special favors from certain individuals. Granted the main story doesn't have "multiple" endings (that I am aware of), but many of the side-quest narratives do.

Forced adventure? Where nothing of that in fallout or arcanum. You will not find praise of jrpg at rpgcodex.

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Not sure what you are saying here. When I was referring to a forced adventure there was a natural progression in fallout to a solution, as was in arcanum, the solutions were varried, but they weren't as open ended as I think you are implying.

In fallout the skills andstats you choose had impact on dialogue trees and diferent posibilities in resolving quest. Whot is the diference in oblivion? You can kill someting whit sword or magic and you can use stealth, any other?

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Using traps, and natural elements in the environment thanks to the ragdoll physics. In Oblivion the skills and stats you choose also has an impact on the dialogue trees and possibilities in resolving quests.

Again, you must make a choice when developing a game. I think I am missing your point, but I don't see us disagreeing, other than me seeing that Oblivion offers many choices - even in how you handle the main quest. Morrowind was the same way.