Disappointments?

Spazmo · Feb 22, 2003

In this "golden age" of CRPGs, lots and lots of developers are coming out with lots and lots of games an making lots and lots of promises about how cool their games are going to be. However, most of these games end up being terrible and those lofty promises turn out to be lies. There are a rare few games that live up to expectations and are as good as promised, but there are so rare that they become almost miraculous. And besides, when a game lives up to its ambitions and hype, it's mostly because there wasn't too much ambition and hype to begin with.

Anyways, we've all bought a game we thought would be just terrific, only to find out that it's only so-so, or maybe even plain terrible.

My own example of this is Morrowind. The numerous glowing reviews of the game encouraged me to buy it, expecting a deep world with lots of interaction that would really fascinate me. What I got was somewhat less than that. The graphics are nice, yes, as is the sound, and I could surely just go for long walks through the gameworld, but that's not what I paid for. The first bad sign was the dialog, or lack thereof. The way 95% of NPCs said the exact same things on the exact same topics really detracted from the idea that these are actual people. Whole cities seemed to be filled with walking bulletin boards. And your character's dialog didn't help either. In Morrowind, you don't choose what you say, but rather choose one or two word topics that your character asks NPCs about. This gave me the impression that my character isn't really there and doesn't really matter at all. It all felt so passive. This, combined with a few other factors like a lack of focus and the fact that it's far too easy to get lost caused me to rapidly lose interest in Morrowind. I enjoy it while it lasts, but eventually I just get bored and give up.

And now I invite you to share your own disappointments. And please, avoid mention of Neverwinter Nights, since we all know what's wrong with that game already.

Jack_Deth · Feb 22, 2003

Basically what we get is, What clue do you want first? in these games until we have learned everything we wanted. There is no strategic diplomacy you need to use like in a game like Fallout where you would irritate the person. I hope Lionheart can bring this feel back, where we make friends and enemies... seemingly for real.

Gothic and Morrowind, yes they are good games in general but we were promised more depth than they gave out. I am about to give NWN a second shot by playing it with my girlfriend. That will make it fun at least.

Saint_Proverbius · Feb 23, 2003

I think what disappoints me the most are games that have potential galore, then end up using some major, mainstream device that ends up totally ruining the game. There are loads of examples of this, including Divine Divinity. That title showed a lot of potential, but ultmately was crippled under the weight of the action based, real time/pause combat system that was used way, way too much. Instead of using the item and environmental interaction the game boasts, you're stuck with wading through seas of orcs and undead.

Gothic also let me down. I wish the game had charisma, or some form of persausion, but it doesn't. It's combat was also way too arcadish. However, the setting was neat, so I played it. It was fairly free form in the beginning too.. Then you pick a faction, and it goes totally linear. That was a huge bummer, and that's when I stopped playing it because the main aspect I liked about it was ripped out from under me.

Rosh · Feb 23, 2003

That seems to be the biggest complaint about Gothic, is that it turned back into Ultima 9 at a certain point. Hopefully the second one won't make that mistake, but I'll be waiting for reviews on that game before I try it, just in case they make it completely linear or pull the same trick. Essentially, in Gothic, if you picked the wrong faction for the wrong class, you were screwed beyong belief. I had managed to luck out and got to be the best mages around.

Saint_Proverbius · Feb 23, 2003

I went with Templar, which kick much ass due to having some nifty spells and good fighting abilities.

However, another thing I didn't like about Gothic was that you were forced to use magic in it. Rather than allowing a Templar or fighter the ability to take down certain monsters with their inate power, there were some that just forced you to use scroll spells to kill those. It really annoyed me when I figured out I was running a monster gauntlet and I had to go all the way back to town to buy a scroll just to get passed some elemental.

Crazy Tuvok · Feb 23, 2003

Frankly many (most?) games I play nowadays end up being disappointing. There was a time when I finished every game I started but now hardly ever. It isn't just that they don't live up to the "hype" or the reviews, which many do not, it is that the game itself just ends up being more of the same. I agree Morrowind is a terrific example of this; loved it at first but after a while the game played the same hour after hour. Altho getting lost was one of the things I really liked about it. I also liked the character creation/development but how long can that infatuation last?
Even a game as rich as Geneforge ended up being something of a disappointment to me. The best parts of the game to me were the world in which it was set, the creepy abandonment and desolation of the Sucia etc. Unfortunately there was way too much combat and I eventually got a little irritated that no matter what zone I entered clearing that zone almost always meant kick x amount of ass.
Divine Divinity - I agree totally with Saint. I got the game, fired it up and really liked the character advancement and amount of interaction with the world - and I quit without finishing because the game turned into frigging Diablow.
Maybe I am getting old, but I more often than not nowadays I replay older games and rarely finish the new ones.

Vault Dweller · Feb 23, 2003

Spazmo said:
Anyways, we've all bought a game we thought would be just terrific, only to find out that it's only so-so, or maybe even plain terrible.

We all feel your pain, brother Spazmo. 90% of games released in the last few years were hyped as the-best-and/or-most-innovative-thing-evar but turned out to be mediocre at best. I feel completely confused and lost in the sea of lies, deceptions, plain stupidity, and incompetence that took roots in the gaming industry.

When I visit my EB store, the shelves are full with all kinda crap. I have not bought a game in a long, long while. I see nothing at all, but a terrible waste of man-hours that went into making all those look-alike games. Thanks to SP, I played Geneforge, Prelude, and now I am playing Avernum, while eagerly awaiting ToEE and being a bit curious about Jefferson (a hope dies last, they say). My last officially bought dissapointment was Morrowind, my next is going to be MOO3 (gonna buy for the old time (MOO1) sakes).

Morrowind is a great game as long as you play it as a Myst module (explore while admiring the scenery). The moment you start playing it as a RPG, all you have left is an extremely shallow gameplay, very basic skill system filled with pointless non-informative numbers, repetetive dialogues, and click-fest combat with a handy pause feature that allows you to gulp potions that makes you almost invulnerable. But the water effect was nice

Rosh · Feb 23, 2003

Prov, FUCK melee in Gothic. It is so lame compared to magic. Magic restores are so incredibly easy to come by later on, you'll be mass-wiping things out like mad. If you play again, go for the full mage path.

Jed · Feb 23, 2003

Crazy Tuvok said:
Maybe I am getting old, but I more often than not nowadays I replay older games and rarely finish the new ones.

Ah, brother Tuvok, I swear I could've written your post word for word. I've been feeling very much the same for the past year or so, but I just wanted to ask if you've tried Prelude to Darkness, as I can't recommend it enough. Being the product of very few people of limited experience, it has its problems, quirks, and limitations, but it's the first game I've played in the last year or two that actually gets better the more I play it, and it'll probably be the first game I will finish since Arcanum.

Jed

LCJr. · Feb 23, 2003

Arcanum definately tops my list. That game had so much potentional but fell short. It wasn't any one thing but all the little annoyances and that horrible ending was the last straw. I've tried to replay several times with different characters but just can't bring myself to go through it again.

Not an RPG but Jagged Alliance:Unfinished Bussiness was also a major disappoint. They completely stripped out everything I liked in JA2 and replaced it with nothing but difficult and tedious combat.

I'm with Tuvok. I finished Betrayal at Krondor for the first time this week and will play it again sometime. I had heard a lot of good things about it so finally gave it a shot and completely enjoyed it. Its also become kind of ritual for me to dig out Darklands about once every year or so. Now I'm working on Megatraveller2 but may not finish it. Next on the list is maybe SSI's Buck Rodgers games.

Speaking of Spiderweb. I've got a game of Avernum 3 I've played all up to the big baddie's hideout and I'm completely bored with it. The game may never be finished as I seem to have hit my limit for hacking through hordes.

But you know its not just RPG's but computer games in general seem to have stagnated.

Saint_Proverbius · Feb 23, 2003

Crazy Tuvok said:
Even a game as rich as Geneforge ended up being something of a disappointment to me. The best parts of the game to me were the world in which it was set, the creepy abandonment and desolation of the Sucia etc. Unfortunately there was way too much combat and I eventually got a little irritated that no matter what zone I entered clearing that zone almost always meant kick x amount of ass.

Yeah, that was one of my problems with Geneforge. The southern part of the island was more fun because of the towns there. I wish Vogel had given more town-stuff for the player to enjoy in the Northern areas like Freeplace and that area where the Servant Mind had the town of rogue creations. Even the town of Shades south of the castle could have been expanded to make it more town-ish.

Though, I haven't seen too many people say the setting for the game wasn't eerie cool. The setting really makes that game, IMHO. It's probably the best designed setting since Fallout's 1950s themed post apocalypse.

Vault Dweller said:
We all feel your pain, brother Spazmo. 90% of games released in the last few years were hyped as the-best-and/or-most-innovative-thing-evar but turned out to be mediocre at best. I feel completely confused and lost in the sea of lies, deceptions, plain stupidity, and incompetence that took roots in the gaming industry.

Yeah, that's one thing I really don't care much for. I'm not sure what the deal is with games these days, but no matter how mediocre they are in terms of every area except graphics, they always get massive hype.

Morrowind is a great game as long as you play it as a Myst module (explore while admiring the scenery). The moment you start playing it as a RPG, all you have left is an extremely shallow gameplay, very basic skill system filled with pointless non-informative numbers, repetetive dialogues, and click-fest combat with a handy pause feature that allows you to gulp potions that makes you almost invulnerable. But the water effect was nice

About the only thing decent to roleplay in Morrowind really is a thief or an assassin. Fighter and wizards are fairly dull compared to the amount of outlets for the thief and assassin, just because there's so much neat stuff you can do as them where fighters and wizards are pretty much "kill stuff" classes.

DrattedTin · Feb 24, 2003

I have to disagree.

Morrowind didn't do everything right, but I think as a whole, as a coherent package, it was still a damn amazing game. It didn't last me as long as Daggerfall, but that's to be expected.

So I'm curious as to what they'll do with Oblivion... if it's even smaller than Morrowind, I don't know if I'll be able to stomach it.

Saint_Proverbius · Feb 24, 2003

DrattedTin said:
I have to disagree.

Morrowind didn't do everything right, but I think as a whole, as a coherent package, it was still a damn amazing game. It didn't last me as long as Daggerfall, but that's to be expected.

Well, I still think the dialogue was a big mistake. That browser based system just didn't seem on par with a traditional tree form. It felt more like cruising the web circa 1996 using mosiac or using a Windows help file than actually conversing with people. It especially annoyed me when I got to certain people with gobs of options that I had to talk with repeatedly, so I had to scan that list of topics just to see if there was anything new.

If the dialogue had been better, then maybe I could have overlooked the combat.

So I'm curious as to what they'll do with Oblivion... if it's even smaller than Morrowind, I don't know if I'll be able to stomach it.

I'm fairly interested in seeing what goes on with Sea Dogs 2, personally.

Vault Dweller · Feb 24, 2003

DrattedTin said:
Morrowind didn't do everything right, but I think as a whole, as a coherent package, it was still a damn amazing game.

Care to elaborate?

Seth · Feb 24, 2003

I played all these games you fellows mentioned (well didnâ€™t tried Avernum yet) and I must say I wouldnâ€™t call them disappointments, not big at least, then again all depends on what your expectations are and definition of the â€œbig disappointmentâ€. I guess Iâ€™m just a little more forgiving

, but if any of you ever want to see and play big DISAPPOINTMET you should try â€œAnother warâ€.

Rosh said:
Prov, FUCK melee in Gothic. It is so lame compared to magic. Magic restores are so incredibly easy to come by later on, you'll be mass-wiping things out like mad. If you play again, go for the full mage path.

Rosh I think you missing the point here, When someone plays the PRGs he/her chooses classes or characters according to way he/she likes to play. In most CRPGs the easiest class is fighter, but it doesnâ€™t mean Iâ€™m going to chose to play this path. I want rouge even if itâ€™s hell to pay. Take any game: BG, Arcanum, Fallout if you were anything but fighter (including multiclasses with fighters) you depended on your companions and you wouldnâ€™t stand a chance alone.

Crazy Tuvok · Feb 24, 2003

I dl'd the PtD demo but have been waiting for the latest patch hoping that the random crashes would be fixed. What I have played I have really enjoyed and now that the new patch is out will fire it up again and intend to purchase.
Geneforge - I am with Saint. I defy anyone who likes CRPGs to dislike the setting.

I am relieved to see that it is not just me; I assumed it was just nostalgia or senility setting in that made me dislike almost every new game ("why back in my day we had games dammit!"). Truly I find it remarkable to read a game review wherein a paragraph (or two) is devoted to the lighting effects. Lighting effects! Jebus who freaking cares for more than a second how good the water looks or how realistic shadows are *unless it is in service to gameplay*. I also agree that it is not just CRPGs that suck currently, but everything else too. I always find it hilarious to read reviews of games I have played and quit - "98% this game gets almost everything right!" - did the reviewer even play the same game as I?

I dunno - I am a cranky bastard I guess, but games are in the crapper lately afaic. Here's hoping ToEE can revive gaming for me otherwise I might be forced to get a life or go outside and really that is more than I can bear.

Araanor · Feb 24, 2003

I've been a dedicated gamer for years, nowadays I barely have the patience to try anything out. I don't do much more than some RPGs and strategy games. Chalk me up as another who'd rather pick up something from the old stack instead of getting something new.

Magazines and reviews are bollocks.

Rosh · Feb 24, 2003

Seth said:
Rosh I think you missing the point here, When someone plays the PRGs he/her chooses classes or characters according to way he/she likes to play. In most CRPGs the easiest class is fighter, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to chose to play this path. I want rouge even if it’s hell to pay. Take any game: BG, Arcanum, Fallout if you were anything but fighter (including multiclasses with fighters) you depended on your companions and you wouldn’t stand a chance alone.

I think you missed the point I made about melee being NEARLY COMPLETELY USELESS compared to magic, which was pretty much what Prov said about how you'll need magic. If you're going to need to use magic, then they really didn't develop it for a fighter in mind, did they? it's also pretty bad to screw the player out of advancement in magic skills if they choose another faction than the "high mage" path of Fire->Water->Robe of Dark (not sure if it's available to Sect at all), or make the mistake of choosing the Sect Camp. If you don't do that, you are pretty much dead-ended as a pitiful mage. Gimping a character through a surprise dead end like that where the only chance they will know it is a bad choice to do is through a guide or by playing through it is BAD DESIGN. Or how about how archer characters are fucked because they either have to use the Wave of Death spell or the blade?

So, in essence, stop apologising for someone's bad design. When someone will make a class available, it's also responsible for them to make it at least somewhat viable as well rather than make "surprise dead ends".

Saint_Proverbius · Feb 24, 2003

I think I have to go with Rosh on this one, though I disagree with him on the reason why, basically. With magic, you pretty much cast and target, right? With melee in Gothic, you're forced to deal with all those special combo moves based on what's going on looking at the screen. That's basically why I said the combat was disappointing, because it was arcadish.

As for the magic thing, I don't usually play magic characters. If I do, I go with the priestly style of magic and that pretty much sucks in Gothic.

DrattedTin · Feb 25, 2003

Vault Dweller said:
DrattedTin said:

Morrowind didn't do everything right, but I think as a whole, as a coherent package, it was still a damn amazing game.

Click to expand...

Care to elaborate?

First, there were, of course, the graphics.

Now before you scream at me about how graphics should take a backseat to gameplay, I have two points to make.

One, I am not a graphics fiend. I was an avid fan of the Exile series. I play MUSHes. That said, graphics, when done right, can promote something that is very very important: Atmosphere. RPGs are about travelling to another place, and playing a vastly different role. To that end, visuals can play a big part.

Two, Morrowind doesn't tank on the gameplay, in my opinion. Sure, some things could have been done different - I liked Daggerfall's combat more, for instance - but on the whole it was still the smooth, intuitive TES gameplay that I love. Deep, yes, DEEP. Sure, it may seem like an empty world at times, but the TES series has always been about YOU. Not those around you. You. If that bothers you, that single premise, then you probably can't get much enjoyment from it.

Makaar · Feb 25, 2003

In response to the topic: Hard question for me, since I usually do a lot of research before buying any game, but I DO remember, a number of years ago, The Elder Scrolls: Arena came out. It seemed like it would be, utterly amazing. MILLIONS of miles to explore, good story, WEATHER EFFECTS!(this was during the early 90's), day/night cycles, thousands of jobs. I bought it, then saw the system requirements. I matched the requirements. It ran so slow, it was unplayable, and the starting area was very hard.
After that, I vowed to research games before buying them...

Vault Dweller · Feb 25, 2003

DrattedTin said:
First, there were, of course, the graphics....Atmosphere. RPGs are about travelling to another place, and playing a vastly different role. To that end, visuals can play a big part.

No doubt about that. Morrowind has the most impressive graphics I've ever seen, and it's always a bonus when a solid gameplay is complimented by great visuals. Now, about that solid gameplay....

Sure, some things could have been done different - I liked Daggerfall's combat more, for instance - but on the whole it was still the smooth, intuitive TES gameplay that I love. Deep, yes, DEEP.

Once again, can you be a little bit more specific? Smooth, intuitive gameplay is too vague, could be said about many games including Solitaire. You obviously like the game, I'm not trying to convince you not to or flame you for your choice. I am just curious what did you see that I did not.

So let's take it step by step. Here is what i did not like

1. Char development - Very poorly planned/executed attribute/leveling up system, all char are basically the same. By mid game, every char is fighter/mage/thief.

2. Dialogues - I think the dialogue system represents all the problems MW has. For the sake of the ability to do (ask) anything, they sacrificed the individuality and uniqness.

3. Combat - a big joke. Click, click, pause, gulp, gulp, click, click. As long as you have potions, you are practically immortal. As the game progresses you meet tougher enemies, which means more hitpoints, which means more clicking.

4. Skills - one skill for swords that can be maxed out fairly early in the game? One skill for the variety of swords the game has? You reach 100 and the progress stops. Fallout increased skillpoints cost, Wizardry unlocked more powerful, more penetraiting attacks, MW offered nothing (except for skill-increasing items)

5. Ph4t l3wt - wow, never had so much loot in my life, especially the one I can hardly sell. And I thought Diablo was the king of loot :lol:

6. Guilds - I think the whole experience is bit pointless and treadmillish. I worked my ass off to get to the top of my guild, and then....nothing. I dunno, somehow I expected more.
There was no agenda, intrigue, conflict, or fight for influence between the guilds. I was a member of 5 or 6 guilds, nothing made me care or chose, there was no worthy cause to take as my own, etc. Everything was generic, faceless.

7. Quests - for a handcrafted game, Bethesda could have done a better job with quests, I never felt that I'm doing something important or worth doing. Fetch this, save that, find this, etc. Boring. In Prelude, for example, many quests were interlocked in one, often a little thing done here could have surfaced there.

Sure, it may seem like an empty world at times, but the TES series has always been about YOU. Not those around you. You

Again, not very clear. Most games that I played were about me and the choices I made, so unless I completely misunderstood you, I don't see a big deal about it in MW.

Section8 · Feb 25, 2003

Morrowind was a big disappointment for me too. It had lots of choice, but I don't think I enjoyed the gameplay any choice led too. Speech skills gave four generic interactions while in conversation, combat was dull, stealth and theft wasn't much better, and the magic I didn't really get to experience to any great extent, since it's so inhibited during the early stages of the game.

Storn · Feb 25, 2003

What killed Morrowind for me was, quite simply, the combat. I can't stand having to click to swing ... I hate it. It just irritates me to no end

Here's a question for you guys - have any of you ever played the old SSI game, Wizard's Crown? Or looking more recently, has anyone played the Realms of Arkania Trilogy - Star Trail being my favorite, with the other two Shadows over Riva and Blade of Destiny.

S.

Saint_Proverbius · Feb 25, 2003

The guilds in Morrowind are something I'd have loved to have seen done better. There's two things I would have liked to have seen changed about those guilds.

Job board style: Instead of getting a linear series of quests to gain rank in a guild, I would have much rather seen a job board similar to Avernum's courier missions. Each job on the board would have a rank increase value as well as a pay value for completion of the job. That way, you could pick and choose which assignments you wanted and worked on advancing in the guild based on what you wanted to do. It wouldn't even have bothered me if this was randomly generated, because that would make up for the whole go fetch me four plants quests in the mage guild. If I didn't want to fetch plants, I'd just pick something else.
Guild management: When you become the head of the guild, it switches to a more management type situation where you get possible jobs from people and you accept whether or not the guild places them on the board or not. You also get a percentage of the payment for taking those jobs. Of course, any jobs not done within a certain time would require some form of penalty. You could also hire people to manage the individual guilds and do the jobs yourself if you wanted.

If Morrowind had done that, I think guilds would have been far more interesting. As it stands now though, guilds are just linear strings of quests, which really isn't that much fun.

Disappointments?

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