Why do Dungeons exist?

Human Shield · Jan 5, 2006

Why are there hundreds of underground stone bunkers filled with random treasure?

Who is craving them all?
Why do all of them have undead?
What are orcs and goblins sitting around doing?
How do they walk around with all the traps and locks?

LlamaGod · Jan 5, 2006

It's been awhile since I was on my RPG IDEA MAKING craze, but one thing i'd really like to put in an RPG is logical design.

Logical design for the world, the monsters, the quests and the buildings.

Actually fleshing out monsters and giving them reasons and things to do.

Such as a cave of goblins, have the king in there on his throne and have little goblins running around and talking to him, working as servants. Then take guards and place them how a king would be guarded and set up patrol routes, with their own system (instead of just guys walking around in circles).

It's more work, but I think THATS what creates immersion. Not silly ass graphics that look like someone pissed all over your monitor.

Making a world that acts logically and realistically, not how realistic they look.

Gothic 2 touched a little on logic, which is one reason why I like it so much. The way their monsters were designed in difficulty in accordance to their percieved threat. Impossible quests should be just that, not some fake aura of difficulty.

If there is a legend of going on some hellish journey to the center of a volcano and ripping out the tooth of some giant lava dragon thats made of pure diamond, that nobody has returned from, it should be designed as difficult as it sounds.

Keldryn · Jan 6, 2006

Human Shield said:
Why are there hundreds of underground stone bunkers filled with random treasure?

Who is craving them all?
Why do all of them have undead?
What are orcs and goblins sitting around doing?
How do they walk around with all the traps and locks?

Because D&D games from the 70s and early 80s had them, and designers are too lazy to come up with anything better.

There aren't too many CRPGs where the dungeons really feel like they had some purpose within the fiction of the game world. Fallout and Fallout 2 handled them far better than most CRPGs do. Ultima VII handled it fairly well too; Covetous was once a mine, Wrong was once a prison, etc. The main problem with those dungeons is that the layouts were forced to exist on a single level, and confined within how the mountain ranges were laid out. (Serpent Isle didn't allow you to sail around the ocean freely, so much of what was "ocean" on your map was actually the other levels of the dungeons.) Ultima IX actually had pretty good in-game explanations for the dungeons (other than The Abyss), but the contrived puzzles (especially Deceit and Shame) kind of screwed that up.

And since I can't resist the opportunity to plug...

When we built the dungeons for the Ultima V: Lazarus project, we made every effort to give each dungeon a story and a reason for existing. The layout of each dungeon was thought-out in terms of this, as well as monster and item placement.

spacemoose · Jan 6, 2006

Arx Fatalis did this very well with the goblin and ogre(?) dungeons. I particularly liked the 'bake a laxative cake for the goblin king' puzzle. I hesitate to call it a quest, but I wish more games would do this kind of thing more.

And the Exile games achieved better dungeon immersion for me than many many others - each dungeon had an explanation, some had goblin tribes, complete with chiefs, shamans, kitchens, training areas etc., others were ancient tombs of evil mages where undead presence would make sense. I wish I could erase my memory and play those games as if I had never seen them before.

Spazmo · Jan 6, 2006

Well, just having a hole in the ground with sword fodder in it is nonsense, yes, but an indoors complex filled with traps and enemies isn't necessarily retarded. It's up to the designer/DM to provide a justification for this place, which isn't hard to do. Temple of an evil god, abandoned mine, lair, natural caves, underground city, whatever.

I do agree about traps, though. They always struck me as being kind of iffy. The only way traps make sense is if the enemies know you're coming and have time to prepare, or if there's no enemies at all and only traps.

Twinfalls · Jan 6, 2006

I liked the major dungeon in Gothic - the mines. It was so much more atmospheric and interesting because it made sense, and was superbly constucted - huge and spiralling.

Drakron · Jan 6, 2006

Well I can understand traps in prisons and vaults since people sould not be walking around unsupervised and to prevent escapes/theft.

I can understand why a dragon decides to trap corridors to slow down thives after his hoard.

The problem is placement, there sould be a design why that area is trap and how people can move about without being subjected to be killed by then, a example is a gas trap on a room with will activate and close all doors in the room if a keyword is not spoken after x time after a door is open.

LlamaGod · Jan 6, 2006

I always wondered why there were so many poison traps in games when cures are usually readily available.

One of the dumb things about Arcanum was that room full of traps, just ALL over the place. Even the monsters would run over them and kill themselves.

Section8 · Jan 6, 2006

I'm al for having justified existence and rational explanations for everything. To me, that's the cornerstone of creating a plausible game world.

LlamaGod · Jan 6, 2006

Section8 said:
I'm al for having justified existence and rational explanations for everything. To me, that's the cornerstone of creating a plausible game world.

Definately.

It's more work to make, but fuck, it's work that pays off.

Monster types be logical and explainable, their placements, town placement and sizes, dungeon/fortress placements and reasons for being there, make histories and set up general economies, the geographics of the world, etc. etc. Make that shit plausable.

Make a nest of goblins that have a hierarchy of command, give them some shelters to live in that they would and could build, put them next to a river for food/water reasons. Even just little stuff like that.

Develop political figures in the world that are believable. Not just some dude in a fancy hat named 'Duke of Pants'.

Just make an imaginary world that is believable. I think that is the biggest factor for immersion.

Immersion is broken in games where you have to suspend your belief and you know it's all just total fake stuff that could never really work out.

You need to have a made up world that someone could actually live in, a place with realistic design and histories.

No amount of graphics can create immersion on par with that.

What would feel more real, a super detailed bump mapped light bloomed picture-esque street in a large city that just has some filler NPCs wandering around with guards wandering around?

or an average looking crowded market street, with dozens of people making their way through while people at market stands shout bargins, people stopping and looking at and buying things. With guards watching in attendance next to stands with expensive wares, who will rotate stands with the other guards, while also swatting away thieves (with more experienced ones actually making off with stuff).

kingcomrade · Jan 6, 2006

Hey you asshats don't steal my schtick. Every other time I bring up believability in games the Codex takes the other side.

I WOULD like things to make sense in games. Weapons that are used in a fashion that makes sense (un-mounted broad/longsword-wielding warriors), a LITTLE historical accuracy (since when are longswords and bastard swords two different weapons?) kingdoms and culture that aren't just arbitrarily constructed (tribals in fallout2), characters that don't seem out of place in the setting (chosen one in fallout2 [after all, where does a tribal who fights with spears learn rifles, rocket launchers, and death ray guns, science, repair, etc? Or be so well-educated to make such snarky comments and not share his fellow tribals' superstition?]), random dungeons that don't fit (temple of trials in fallout 2), enemies that fit (ninjas in new reno)....
God damnit I hate Fallout 2.

Keldryn · Jan 6, 2006

Section8 said:
I'm al for having justified existence and rational explanations for everything. To me, that's the cornerstone of creating a plausible game world.

I also find that in doing so, adventures and storylines almost write themselves from the history that you develop.

Volourn · Jan 6, 2006

"Why are there hundreds of underground stone bunkers filled with random treasure?"

Many D&D dungeons were usually built by dwraves, and any dungeon that actually has 'random' treasure is simply poor crafted.

I know when I make a dungeon everything you see is there for a reason.

"Who is craving them all?"

Dwarves, royalty, wizards.

"Why do all of them have undead?"

False. But, lots do since dunegons tend to be long inbanonded and have dakr histores which leads to the dea drising. It is fantasy, afterall. Might as well ask why drgaons exist or why undead are oftgen found in graveyards. Duh.

"What are orcs and goblins sitting around doing?"

Living their lives.

"How do they walk around with all the traps and locks?"

WTF? Are you drunk?

Lumpy · Jan 6, 2006

All the dungeons in Morrowind made sense, in my opinion.
There were ancestral tombs, filled with undead. Smugglers' caves had smugglers and smuggled goods. There were some caves and Velothi towers where mages lived, probably not to be disturbed by outsiders. The Daedric Ruins had Daedra and Daedra worshippers.

Ugrok · Jan 6, 2006

Dungeons are a metaphor of your "unconscious" (dont know how you say that in English - in French, inconscient, you know, the thing Freud discovered) ; your most hidden thoughts, and pulsions are present in dungeons. Monsters are violence ; treasures are pleasure ;they coexist in an underground world, below the surface of your mind.
So, saving the princess imprisoned in the darkest cell of the darkest dungeon would be a metaphor of, hmm, crazy maniac sexual activity...
Dungeons are also good to make the "rebirth scheme" work. The hero wanders underground then comes back changed. He is not the same anymore, he has vanquished some of his daemons, fulfilled some of his pulsions, he has grown. In a lot of books, this rebirth scheme is present : the hero goes to the Styx, or down to hell, then gets out all changed, reborn. In fact we could say that he dives into his own mind. Well that is one interpretation, im sure there are lots of other ones.

Damn, been playing Psychonauts too much...

gromit · Jan 6, 2006

There is no such thing as too much Psychonauts.

Sol Invictus · Jan 6, 2006

Dungeons are a metaphor of your "unconscious" (dont know how you say that in English - in French, inconscient, you know, the thing Freud discovered) ; your most hidden thoughts, and pulsions are present in dungeons. Monsters are violence ; treasures are pleasure ;they coexist in an underground world, below the surface of your mind.
So, saving the princess imprisoned in the darkest cell of the darkest dungeon would be a metaphor of, hmm, crazy maniac sexual activity...
Dungeons are also good to make the "rebirth scheme" work. The hero wanders underground then comes back changed. He is not the same anymore, he has vanquished some of his daemons, fulfilled some of his pulsions, he has grown. In a lot of books, this rebirth scheme is present : the hero goes to the Styx, or down to hell, then gets out all changed, reborn. In fact we could say that he dives into his own mind. Well that is one interpretation, im sure there are lots of other ones.

Quoted for being the most intelligent post ever made on this forum.

Twinfalls · Jan 6, 2006

Yeah that is indeed a very nice post.

flabbyjack · Jan 6, 2006

I like pie. Psychodrivel? Notsomuch.

kingcomrade · Jan 6, 2006

Ugrok said:
snip

Tears in my eyes.

wallace said:
There is no such thing as too much Psychonauts.

Too true.

TheGreatGodPan · Jan 10, 2006

I automatically label any post drawing on Freud and/or Jung "stupid".

yipsl · Jan 10, 2006

LlamaGod said:
Logical design for the world, the monsters, the quests and the buildings.

Actually fleshing out monsters and giving them reasons and things to do.

Such as a cave of goblins, have the king in there on his throne and have little goblins running around and talking to him, working as servants. Then take guards and place them how a king would be guarded and set up patrol routes, with their own system (instead of just guys walking around in circles).

It's more work, but I think THATS what creates immersion. Not silly ass graphics that look like someone pissed all over your monitor.

Making a world that acts logically and realistically, not how realistic they look.

Way back in the Gold Box days, Pool of Radiance had the Kobald caves, I remember the kobalds even had ballista, they had a logical reason to be there and had turned their home into a fortress against outside threats.

The old PnP joke about where the dungeons come from was that they were the ruins of a long dead subterranean race who died out when mountains of treasure erupted from deep in the bowels of the earth. Then sundry monsters and NPCs arrived to acquire the treasure, sometimes only a few days before the player character's party.

The truth of the matter is most dungeon crawls had no rhyme or reason beyond a monty haul fetish.

Lumpy said:
All the dungeons in Morrowind made sense, in my opinion.
There were ancestral tombs, filled with undead. Smugglers' caves had smugglers and smuggled goods. There were some caves and Velothi towers where mages lived, probably not to be disturbed by outsiders. The Daedric Ruins had Daedra and Daedra worshippers.

Yes, the dungeons in Morrowind made sense, sometimes more than the ones in Daggerfall, but my favorite TES dungeons were the classic dungeons from Arena.

Trash · Jan 10, 2006

Arcanum was a neat game with some great quests. The dungeons were rather horrible though. Traps everywhere, different kinds of monsters everywhere, no logical layout and history to them. The dungeons were for me the worst part of arcanum (even more so than the bugs and combat system) and nearly made me quit the game.

However, some games manage to do the dungeons right. Geneforge and avernum gave them a logical layout, history and inhabitants. IMO the best dungeons in any game ever. Fallout was pretty neat as well, the old buck rogers was allright and gothic 2 also has some memorable places.

edit: whoops, seems like I called avernum arcanum. More coffee seems in order.

spacemoose · Jan 10, 2006

Trash said:
Arcanum was a neat game with some great quests. The dungeons were rather horrible though. Traps everywhere, different kinds of monsters everywhere, no logical layout and history to them. The dungeons were for me the worst part of arcanum (even more so than the bugs and combat system) and nearly made me quit the game.

However, some games manage to do the dungeons right. Geneforge and arcanum gave them a logical layout, history and inhabitants. IMO the best dungeons in any game ever. Fallout was pretty neat as well, the old buck rogers was allright and gothic 2 also has some memorable places.

So Arcanum had terribly designed dungeons, yet Arcanum managed to do the dungeons right?

Psilon · Jan 10, 2006

He may be thinking of Avernum for the latter.

Why do Dungeons exist?

Augur

Cipher

Arcane

Erudite

Erudite

Erudite

Arcane

Cipher

Cipher

Cipher

Kingcomrade

Arcane

Pretty Princess

Arcane

Novice

Arcane

Erudite

Erudite

Arcane

Kingcomrade

Arbiter

Scholar

Pointing and laughing.

Erudite

Erudite