Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Original lore? Balance over suspension of disbelief?

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
The talk at the TES thread got me thinking. What is the best balance between new'ness and down to earth?

Wouldn't a lore that makes sense eventually copy events of human history? The same elements of war and balance of power is there.

Some people like magic that does lots of stuff, but this can make the setting harder to stay consistent. And others like more relateable worlds.

Wouldn't historical events be good to twist into a fantasy setting, such as the leading empires finding a new continent.

How different can technology get? The same forms of rifles and tanks show up, is it worth it to throw in artificial differences that don't make much sense? What would dwarf and elf company cars look like?
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
My 2c:

Human Shield said:
What is the best balance between new'ness and down to earth?

I don't think it's a question of there having to be a 'balance'. I think newness should be striven for wherever possible, and be restrained only when it feels contrived or illogical or doesn't suit the vision of the authors.

Wouldn't a lore that makes sense eventually copy events of human history?

No. Not at all. Human history has had countless permutations of possible directions. It's a complex system with so many forces at play that we can't say there was much that was inevitable.

A lore that makes sense would however reflect the same kinds of internal logic that we see in our own world and history. Character behaviour would by default probably be modelled on human behaviour in terms of the outcomes of greed/self interest vs morality/love, unless differing character behaviour were specifically explained.

Some people like magic that does lots of stuff, but this can make the setting harder to stay consistent. And others like more relateable worlds.

I think if weird magic had some good background and depth, and an internal consistency, it should always be something to strive for without fear of alienating people who want 'relatable' stuff.

Wouldn't historical events be good to twist into a fantasy setting, such as the leading empires finding a new continent.

Aren't we sick of human-history metaphors by now?

How different can technology get? The same forms of rifles and tanks show up, is it worth it to throw in artificial differences that don't make much sense? What would dwarf and elf company cars look like?

Subtle originality for the same basic technology can work wonders. See the street lighting in the game 'Thief'. It's street-lighting performing the same function as we are used to, but when you examine it - it's different to what you expect. A weird arcing gas structure hovering at the centre of a crucible at the top of the pole. Is it magic, or just a different tech, or are both really one and the same? You don't know, but it sure adds to the atmosphere.
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Why do people treat this as "General Oblivion Discussion" and not bother to imply that it's about Oblivion in the title?

edit: oops looks like it was about lore in general
 

Micmu

Magister
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
6,163
Location
ALIEN BASE-3
Tintin said:
Why do people treat this as "General Oblivion Discussion" and not bother to imply that it's about Oblivion in the title?
Looks like you're running out of material.
HS said only "The talk at the TES thread got me thinking." and that was all. Where is something related to any specific game?
Edit: Oh... TF mentioned Thief.


Well... I kinda liked how Arcanum handled magic & technology mixture.
Magic works against/changes the nature and technology uses the nature.
And ogres operating airplanes... Mmm..
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Oh, I thought he was talking about the direction of the TES Lore.
 

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
Are Elves (nature hippies), Dwarves (obnoxous gear heads), Orcs (brutes) the best sterotypical races to have in a world? Are races always going to be sterotypes and best-fits for classes? The race that is stronger then humans, the one that has more technology, the wiser one; these repeat in most 4X games too, they seem to keep humans (who the player is more likely to relate to) in an interesting place.

Could players play as a race that needed to breath water for instance? Or undead that can swap body parts? This exists in PnP but I don't see anyone attempt it in games.

Twinfalls said:
I think if weird magic had some good background and depth, and an internal consistency, it should always be something to strive for without fear of alienating people who want 'relatable' stuff.

But it is rarely internally consistent. They don't seem to want to use magic for anything besides combat.

Aren't we sick of human-history metaphors by now?

I don't think they've gotten out of classical/medieval world, so I would like to see more modern ones. Like a Cold War between two races, WMD arms race, etc...
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
It's really a symptom of mass market media. The marketing machine, with its roots in trends, demographics and statistical predictions, requires a solid foundation of familiarity and comparison to similar products.

And to certain extent, the consumer does actually desire this. The more difficult it is to classify something, the more difficult it is to make an informed decision about purchasing said product. On a broad scale, we're all here because we enjoy (or used to enjoy) RPGs. We use the expectation of a somewhat standardised gameplay set, because we know that we like that particular gaming paradigm.

It can be just as easily applied to setting. My brother, for instance, has no real interest in fantasy/sci-fi First Person Shooters. His preference is toward simulationism and "real world" settings. My housemate loves RPGs, but mainly high fantasy. I still haven't persuaded the fucker to play Fallout.

Of course, given the extent of information and communications technology these days, it should be easier to effectively promote and explain original concepts and ideas. Fat fucking chance. At least the same technology permits distribution and awareness of independent games.

And there's always anomalies. System of a Down for instance, are pretty fucking innovative and avant garde for a metal band, and yet they also manage broad commercial appeal. Sadly, I can't think of a counterpart in the games industry.
 

RGE

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
773
Location
Karlstad, Sweden
Human Shield said:
Are Elves (nature hippies), Dwarves (obnoxous gear heads), Orcs (brutes) the best sterotypical races to have in a world?
Well, all these races are more or less old myths (orcs = trolls), so they give any fantasy setting that olden days atmosphere that many prefer. I guess I prefer it too, but I'd like it better if they could tone the newfangled high magic down to something like fairy tale magic instead. Not many fairy tales featured fireballs.

But I think that elves work equally well as cityslickers, dwarves as scholars and orcs as brutish miners/smiths. Humans probably work well as bloodslaves to vampires, what with their speedy breeding and all.

I don't think that lore is better because it might be similar to real history as we know it, but since we learn from history it makes sense to us that empires invade tribal lands, and it's somewhat important that lore makes sense. And if there's epic magic around, then it's up to the loremakers to make sense out of its effects on the world. Weird magic or technology is often interesting.
 

MINIGUNWIELDER

Scholar
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
604
Section8 said:
And there's always anomalies. System of a Down for instance, are pretty fucking innovative and avant garde for a metal band, and yet they also manage broad commercial appeal. Sadly, I can't think of a counterpart in the games industry.
*remembers that soad song about zelda sung by the guy with the deep voice*
*laughs*
nintendo i believe...
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
I wonder, why has nobody made a modern world with magic yet?
 

Atrokkus

Erudite
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
3,089
Location
Borat's Fantasy Land
I think that in order to make such kinds of "alternative" fantasy settings, one has to trace the whole evolution of the sentients portrayed in the game. That is, if I plan to make a sci-fi fantasy, then I gotta start from the very beginning of biological species (elves, humans etc), because chances are the parallels with real world might be quite inappropriate due to the fact that magic existed long before the high technology. That is, probably there would never be a high-tech society since the magic was a better substitute. But it could be any way, it's just required to set the huge timeline and imagine all that has happened, then the world will feel logical and "real".
 

Elwro

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
11,746
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Lumpy said:
I wonder, why has nobody made a modern world with magic yet?
You mean like Shadowrun? (I'm surprised by the link myself; I play the old paper version and didn't know something else got released since FASA broke down.)
 
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
1,269
Location
The Von Braun, Deck 5
mEtaLL1x said:
I think that in order to make such kinds of "alternative" fantasy settings, one has to trace the whole evolution of the sentients portrayed in the game. That is, if I plan to make a sci-fi fantasy, then I gotta start from the very beginning of biological species (elves, humans etc), because chances are the parallels with real world might be quite inappropriate due to the fact that magic existed long before the high technology. That is, probably there would never be a high-tech society since the magic was a better substitute. But it could be any way, it's just required to set the huge timeline and imagine all that has happened, then the world will feel logical and "real".
I read a novel about a future where magic was discovered during the 1990ies, a while back. It described how magic influenced the world and technology from that point on. I.e. how it affected corporate machinery, how it revolutioned warfare and how mankind melted technology and magic for all sorts of wacky stuff. The author had some nifty explanations on how magic could affect the world, and the descriptions of the world 90 years after magic arrived(where the story was set) was great! Unfortunately the plot was lame, and the book in general was poorly wirtten. As I read it, I couldn't help but fantasize about how great it would be with an crpg in this setting. If I only could remember the name of the novel...

As for games featuring magic in futuristic settings, there is a lot of magic-ish examples, like System Shocks psionics and the nano-magic in Anarchy Online. While it’s not magic per se, it basically works like it.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom