Bethesda: Scammers or Game-makers?

sheek · Mar 3, 2006

Here's an interesting thread that summed up the list of PR 'exaggerations' Bethesda have gone through to hype Oblivion:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=250612

When you look at it that way you see some pretty blatant lies have been told.

I think the angle you focus most on Oblivion in this forum is that Oblviion isn't an RPG/Bethesda devs are prostitutes/the gaming audience is becoming younger and more moronic.

What if Bethesda's goal is not even to make a good game but simply to scam people out of money. That they're not dumb or selling out - they are good at what they do which is what professional 'criminals' do (even if it's hard to prove that they broke any laws).

Criticizing Bethesda for messing up TES is like attacking Monsanto for not caring about farmers. OK, maybe that's not a good analogy...

What do you think?

Vault Dweller · Mar 3, 2006

Nothing new here. It's clear to anyone that Bethesda used every trick in the book to hype, lie, and mislead potential customers, not admitting/denying anything negative until the last possible minute (spears, levitation, the CS, etc), and exaggerating everything else. They did the same with MW, so I'm surprised why it comes as a shock to some people.

Excrément · Mar 3, 2006

It is the job of the PR department to hype the game.
They can lie, mislead, anything they want...but if they lie too much, hype to much and mislead too much, the customers will be disapointed and won't buy the next game.

If they loose the trust, they will loose definitively the hype.

Look at Fable... is there a hype today for Fable 2?

sheek · Mar 3, 2006

Yeah you're right. Pointless thread.

The worst part of this is that by using these tactics (which work) Bethesda is going to make way more money than they would. This forces out companies which use the old (more traditional) marketting techniques. It's kind of like deception by natural selection.

Game companies are going to get increasingly like this until the average person begin to be more selective with their money.

If you have a media that has sold it's soul to the game makers that's not going to happen any time soon. Or alternatively that enough people are direct victims of these tactics to realize what's going on...

In which case Bethesda may be doing gaming a lot of good. Maybe this blatant display of greed will be the turning point. Maybe Oblivion is a necessary evil? :idea:

sheek · Mar 3, 2006

ExcrÃ©ment said:
It is the job of the PR department to hype the game.
They can lie, mislead, anything they want...but if they lie too much, hype to much and mislead too much, the customers will be disapointed and won't buy the next game.

If they loose the trust, they will loose definitively the hype.

Look at Fable... is there a hype today for Fable 2?

Short term profit vs long term profit.

That short phrase explains a hell of a lot about the modern world when you think about it.

To focus on games/entertainment industry:
As a game company CEO which do you value more? In the old days you made money by surviving in the business and building a reputation. Nowadays you can take a lump sum of money and invest it in the hedge funds, tripling your cash in a couple of days. You need that cash now not tied down for three years.

Excrément · Mar 3, 2006

sheek said:
ExcrÃ©ment said:

It is the job of the PR department to hype the game.
They can lie, mislead, anything they want...but if they lie too much, hype to much and mislead too much, the customers will be disapointed and won't buy the next game.

If they loose the trust, they will loose definitively the hype.

Look at Fable... is there a hype today for Fable 2?

Click to expand...

Short term profit vs long term profit.

That short phrase explains a hell of a lot about the modern world when you think about it.

To focus on games/entertainment industry:
As a game company CEO which do you value more? In the old days you made money by surviving in the business and building a reputation. Nowadays you can take a lump sum of money and invest it in the hedge funds, tripling your cash in a couple of days. You need that cash now not in three years.

You have a very bad opinion of shareholders.
first CEO is different from shareholders.

I am working in a private equity fund (a kind of "hedge fund" but we don't invest in public companies but in private companies (like Bethesda which is a private company)) and when you invest in private company I can ensure you, you don't make cash with speculation, short term profit doesn't create any value for your company, you don't aim long term profit also because 10 years it is too long for a shareholder who want is money back.
So, in fact we invest for 3-7 years. that's always the time of a business plan for venture capitalists or for leveraged-buy out.

So I doubt Zenimax shareholders told Bethesda to lie too much in order to sell a maximum of copies of Oblivion, because a big part of the value of Zenimax is its credibility to make good games (the other part is its capacity to make recurring good cash flows). But I can ensure you that if I were a zenimax shareholders I won't care about TES6 I will only care about TES5...

sheek · Mar 3, 2006

ExcrÃ©ment said:
You have a very bad opinion of shareholders.
first CEO is different from shareholders.

I am working in a private equity fund (a kind of "hedge fund" but we don't invest in public companies but in private companies (like Bethesda which is a private company)) and when you invest in private company I can ensure you, you don't make cash with speculation, short term profit doesn't create any value for your company, you don't aim long term profit also because 10 years it is too long for a shareholder who want is money back.
So, in fact we invest for 3-7 years. that's always the time of a business plan for venture capitalists or for leveraged-buy out.

So I doubt Zenimax shareholders told Bethesda to lie too much in order to sell a maximum of copies of Oblivion, because a big part of the value of Zenimax is its credibility to make good games (the other part is its capacity to make recurring good cash flows). But I can ensure you that if I were a zenimax shareholders I won't care about TES6 I will only care about TES5...

If I was a Zenimax shareholder I'd tell them to scam then two months after the release when profits and shares are highest sell everything. I don't care what image Bethesda gets, I'll find another game company to invest in... or change target industry entirely and go into the Nigerian shoe import/export business.

pseudo intellectual · Mar 3, 2006

Can we just drop the "Dumb Fuck!!!" label on ExcrÃ©ment and be done with it?

Excrément · Mar 3, 2006

pseudo intellectual said:
Can we just drop the "Dumb Fuck!!!" label on ExcrÃ©ment and be done with it?

It will be an honor.

bryce777 · Mar 3, 2006

"What if Bethesda's goal is not even to make a good game but simply to scam people out of money." Bingo.

They have told so many lies and hugely exaggerated so many things that at this point it is simply unbelievable. The other big thing is the unbelievable hyping of things that make basically no difference to gameplay.

The fact they are taking the fallout license in order to make something completely different from the original is also standard atari fraudulence; they are betting on the fallout fans blindly buying it, which sadly many or most will, and at the same time delivering a game that is aimed at the stereotypical console market.

kohla · Mar 3, 2006

pseudo intellectual said:
Can we just drop the "Dumb Fuck!!!" label on ExcrÃ©ment and be done with it?

Ha, ha...no, if I think who he is he is no "Dumb Fuck".

I am working in a private equity fund (a kind of "hedge fund" but we don't invest in public companies but in private....

Hmm...wait, where have I seen this before ?
Is that you Snakey ? :wink:

bryce777 · Mar 3, 2006

ExcrÃ©ment said:
sheek said:

ExcrÃ©ment said:

It is the job of the PR department to hype the game.
They can lie, mislead, anything they want...but if they lie too much, hype to much and mislead too much, the customers will be disapointed and won't buy the next game.

If they loose the trust, they will loose definitively the hype.

Look at Fable... is there a hype today for Fable 2?

Click to expand...

Short term profit vs long term profit.

That short phrase explains a hell of a lot about the modern world when you think about it.

To focus on games/entertainment industry:
As a game company CEO which do you value more? In the old days you made money by surviving in the business and building a reputation. Nowadays you can take a lump sum of money and invest it in the hedge funds, tripling your cash in a couple of days. You need that cash now not in three years.

Click to expand...

You have a very bad opinion of shareholders.
first CEO is different from shareholders.

I am working in a private equity fund (a kind of "hedge fund" but we don't invest in public companies but in private companies (like Bethesda which is a private company)) and when you invest in private company I can ensure you, you don't make cash with speculation, short term profit doesn't create any value for your company, you don't aim long term profit also because 10 years it is too long for a shareholder who want is money back.
So, in fact we invest for 3-7 years. that's always the time of a business plan for venture capitalists or for leveraged-buy out.

So I doubt Zenimax shareholders told Bethesda to lie too much in order to sell a maximum of copies of Oblivion, because a big part of the value of Zenimax is its credibility to make good games (the other part is its capacity to make recurring good cash flows). But I can ensure you that if I were a zenimax shareholders I won't care about TES6 I will only care about TES5...

First off, most software companies don't make it ten years. Second, unethical people are unethical,a nd they lie to their investors more than anyone. I have seen this behind the scenes over and over. Probably the only ones making a profit are the hucksters at bethesda and in 10 years bethesda will not exist and possibly neither will zenimax.

Excrément · Mar 3, 2006

kohla said:
pseudo intellectual said:

Can we just drop the "Dumb Fuck!!!" label on ExcrÃ©ment and be done with it?

Click to expand...

Ha, ha...no, if I think who he is he is no "Dumb Fuck".

I am working in a private equity fund (a kind of "hedge fund" but we don't invest in public companies but in private....

Click to expand...

Hmm...wait, where have I seen this before ?
Is that you Snakey ? :wink:

Seboss · Mar 3, 2006

Hey what's up with all the avatar changes ?

Andyman Messiah · Mar 3, 2006

Seboss said:
Hey what's up with all the avatar changes ?

Attention whoring.

Companies hype their games and sometimes some of the cool stuff that get hyped up don't make it into the game. It's not just Bethesda that does this. Like the french piece of turd said, Fable is a wonderful example, and I can probably think of a few other games if I take a moment to do it.

Personally, I've learned never to trust Public Relations. Their job is to sell the fucking game, and they can do that by hyping something the developers cut from the game a month ago. There's always someone who will listen to the hype and become all damn "OMG! Best Game Ever!" because of it. The Bethsoft forums are filled with the kind, except they'd of course buy the crap anyway. With or without the dynamic shadows. (But dear God Bethesda if they removed the pretty graphics.)

Lessons of Life, part deux: Think for yourself. It's handy.

Excrément · Mar 3, 2006

bryce777 said:
ExcrÃ©ment said:

sheek said:

ExcrÃ©ment said:

It is the job of the PR department to hype the game.
They can lie, mislead, anything they want...but if they lie too much, hype to much and mislead too much, the customers will be disapointed and won't buy the next game.

If they loose the trust, they will loose definitively the hype.

Look at Fable... is there a hype today for Fable 2?

Click to expand...

Short term profit vs long term profit.

That short phrase explains a hell of a lot about the modern world when you think about it.

To focus on games/entertainment industry:
As a game company CEO which do you value more? In the old days you made money by surviving in the business and building a reputation. Nowadays you can take a lump sum of money and invest it in the hedge funds, tripling your cash in a couple of days. You need that cash now not in three years.

Click to expand...

You have a very bad opinion of shareholders.
first CEO is different from shareholders.

I am working in a private equity fund (a kind of "hedge fund" but we don't invest in public companies but in private companies (like Bethesda which is a private company)) and when you invest in private company I can ensure you, you don't make cash with speculation, short term profit doesn't create any value for your company, you don't aim long term profit also because 10 years it is too long for a shareholder who want is money back.
So, in fact we invest for 3-7 years. that's always the time of a business plan for venture capitalists or for leveraged-buy out.

So I doubt Zenimax shareholders told Bethesda to lie too much in order to sell a maximum of copies of Oblivion, because a big part of the value of Zenimax is its credibility to make good games (the other part is its capacity to make recurring good cash flows). But I can ensure you that if I were a zenimax shareholders I won't care about TES6 I will only care about TES5...

Click to expand...

First off, most software companies don't make it ten years. Second, unethical people are unethical,a nd they lie to their investors more than anyone. I have seen this behind the scenes over and over. Probably the only ones making a profit are the hucksters at bethesda and in 10 years bethesda will not exist and possibly neither will zenimax.

I don't think Pete Hines, Todd Howard or Vlatko Antonov are makng millions of bucks.
They are just employees, let's say Antonov : 200k$/year, Howard 120k$/year and Pete 90k$/year.

The ones who make profit are the shareholders but it is quite normal because to invest in software companies is very, very risky. If you invest in this kind of companies you expect at least 25% return per year.

But yes you are true, managers often lie to their shareholders until they are unmasked.

sheek · Mar 3, 2006

Locue said:
Seboss said:

Hey what's up with all the avatar changes ?

Click to expand...

Attention whoring.

Companies hype their games and sometimes some of the cool stuff that get hyped up don't make it into the game. It's not just Bethesda that does this. Like the french piece of turd said, Fable is a wonderful example, and I can probably think of a few other games if I take a moment to do it.

Personally, I've learned never to trust Public Relations. Their job is to sell the fucking game, and they can do that by hyping something the developers cut from the game a month ago. There's always someone who will listen to the hype and become all damn "OMG! Best Game Ever!" because of it. The Bethsoft forums are filled with the kind.

Lessons of Life, part deux: Think for yourself. It's handy.

'French turd' :lol:

I just hope the insult is in the turd and not French part... (I'm also French) :evil:

On topic: I agree with you that all intelligent companies advertise/hype but I think the Bethseda has taken exaggeration/deception and all-around lack of scruples (unscrupulousness?) to a new level.

Andyman Messiah · Mar 3, 2006

sheek said:
'French turd'

I just hope the insult is in the turd and not French part... (I'm also French) :evil:

Well, actually it wasn't an insult at all. Not even the French part.

On topic: I agree with you that all intelligent companies advertise/hype but I think the Bethseda has taken exaggeration/deception and all-around lack of scruples (unscrupulousness?) to a new level.

What new level?

Their PR agents hype their company's products, they get paid for it and it's simply up to us, the faithful consumers, to either see through it or fall for it. It's a kind of game, really.

OverrideB1 · Mar 3, 2006

While I think Bethesda == Scammers is too harsh, they have certainly been extremely economical with the truth throughout the whole Oblivion PR exercise. Hailing right back to the day when we got the Toddmeister's vision of what TESIV was going to be - you know, the infamous "knights on horseback" dribble?

There was a little heat (as I recall) about the removal of crossbows and thrown weapons at the time but we were assured, by various devs, that there was nothing else being cut from the game. Since then, they have allowed us to find out that spears and melee staves aren't in, levitation isn't in, mark/recall isn't in: and so on and so forth. So much, then, for "nothing else will be cut".

While they didn't come right out and say "mounted combat", that was certainly the impression they gave - that there would be mounted combat. Oops no, sorry, that's not in either.

Then we have the uber-fancy next-gen graphics that were a major selling point. Except that, each time we've seen screenshots, uber-fancy, next-gen is exactly what they haven't been. Oh, it's an old, unoptimised build they say - and the apologists picked that excuse up and ran with it. But - with release only a few days away - there's a suspicious dearth of in-game screenshots from Bethesda. The last screenies I saw had the most horrible fucking bloom I've ever seen.

And then there's the "in-game" screenshots posted on the ESF. With lots of pretty detail and cool shadows... Except we have seen nothing that looks even vaguely like these early "screen-shots" in any subsequent release of screenshots. Which means one of two things:
â€¢ These screen-shots were taken on a super-stealth ninja rig that'll set you back several thousand (insert local currency)
â€¢ They are pre-rendered static shots using the base models and some phat textures that just don't appear in the real game.

Then there's the debacle with the shadows...

GhanBuriGhan · Mar 3, 2006

Vault Dweller said:
Nothing new here. It's clear to anyone that Bethesda used every trick in the book to hype, lie, and mislead potential customers, not admitting/denying anything negative until the last possible minute (spears, levitation, the CS, etc), and exaggerating everything else. They did the same with MW, so I'm surprised why it comes as a shock to some people.

The points made in that thread are actually moot, as explained nicely and soberly by Hungry Donner a few posts down. But I guess nothing is too low lately to fuel your little Bethesda conspiracy theory.

Vault Dweller · Mar 3, 2006

What conspiracy? Once again, I stated facts. Were they less then honest with customers about the state of things? Yes. Did they mislead people? Yes. Did they exaggerate? Yes. So, what are we talking about then?

bryce777 · Mar 3, 2006

GhanBuriGhan said:
Vault Dweller said:

Nothing new here. It's clear to anyone that Bethesda used every trick in the book to hype, lie, and mislead potential customers, not admitting/denying anything negative until the last possible minute (spears, levitation, the CS, etc), and exaggerating everything else. They did the same with MW, so I'm surprised why it comes as a shock to some people.

Click to expand...

The points made in that thread are actually moot, as explained nicely and soberly by Hungry Donner a few posts down. But I guess nothing is too low lately to fuel your little Bethesda conspiracy theory.

Hehehehe. Jesus you need a new brain. An outlandish 'conspiracy' to overhype a game.

Yeah, we have NEVER seen a company hype the shit out of a game and le to its customers. EVER.

Jackass.

aweigh · Mar 3, 2006

Well, at least FO3's frame-rate won't be as bad as Oblivion's, since they'll only have to render 16 miles of sand.

HardCode · Mar 3, 2006

I hear they are changing their name due to the bad publicity: BethEnron-TychoWorld.

Vault Dweller · Mar 3, 2006

I heard Atari would be available soon, they should grab it too.

Bethesda: Scammers or Game-makers?

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